1
 1   (2.05 pm)
 2                          MR LEROY LOGAN
 3                         MR BEVAN POWELL
 4                          MR ALFRED JOHN
 5                          MR GARETH REID
 6   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Good afternoon, everyone.  We are just
 7       on the point of reconvening for the afternoon, and we
 8       are taking evidence from the Metropolitan Black Police
 9       Association.
10           Mr Logan, good afternoon to you, and indeed your
11       colleagues.  Can I first of all say thank you very much
12       indeed for accepting our invitation to attend the
13       Inquiry and to give evidence, and for letting us have
14       your written submission which we found extremely
15       helpful.
16           I appreciate that for some of our witnesses, any
17       process of this nature may seem somewhat daunting, so
18       I thought it would be helpful if I set out very briefly
19       how we propose to conduct the hearing this afternoon.
20           But first, let me introduce myself and the other
21       members of my panel.  I am Sir Bill Morris, recently
22       retired General Secretary of the Transport and General
23       Workers Union.  As you can see, I have two other members
24       of the panel; on my right is Sir Anthony Burden, who
25       recently retired as Chief Constable of South Wales
 
     2
 1       Constabulary, after a very long and distinguished career
 2       in the police service.  On my left is Miss Anesta Weekes
 3       QC; Anesta is an eminent barrister who sits as
 4       a recorder and part-time chairperson of employment
 5       tribunals.  She was also counsel to the Lawrence
 6       Inquiry.
 7           Mr Logan, as you know, we have been tasked by the
 8       Metropolitan Police Authority to conduct an independent
 9       inquiry into professional standards and employment
10       matters in the Metropolitan Police.  Our focus is the
11       MPS as an organisation, and not the individuals who make 
12       up that organisation.
13           Let me say, as I have said on each and every
14       occasion that we introduce witnesses, that the inquiry
15       we are conducting is inquisitorial and not, by nature or
16       character, adversarial.
17           We are very keen to enquire into the issues which
18       are raised in our terms of reference, so that we can
19       make appropriate recommendation for further good
20       practice, rather than concentrating on making criticisms
21       of the MPS as an organisation, or particular individuals
22       in it.
23           To help us in our task, we are very keen to hear
24       from all our witnesses not just what is wrong with the
25       Met but what is right with it; but most importantly, we
 
     3
 1       are seeking suggestions as to how matters can be put
 2       right in order to make the Metropolitan Police Service
 3       better.
 4           For the record, a transcript is being taken, so that
 5       we have a proper record of the evidence given by
 6       witnesses.  This will be posted on our website later
 7       today.
 8           At the end of these introductory remarks, I will
 9       lead on the questions to you, followed by my colleagues,
10       Miss Weekes first, and then followed by Sir Anthony, and
11       any supplementary questions that I might find necessary.
12       At the conclusion of our questions, I will offer you the
13       opportunity for a brief closing comment if you so wish.
14           You have in your submission posted to us a number of
15       very important pointers.  The submission itself, as
16       I have already said, will be on the website as part of
17       your evidence, but you have set out for us informations
18       under a whole range of headings.  For the record, I will
19       just refresh certainly my memory about what they are.
20           Firstly, you have set out the aims of the MBPA, and
21       you have outlined your work initiatives.  You say to us
22       the MBPA views on the deficiencies in the policies,
23       practices and procedures of the Met, relating to
24       complaint, both external and internal, and you have
25       indicated views on the Fairness at Work and the
 
     4
 1       resolution of employment claims.
 2           You have highlighted specific concerns relating to
 3       the MPCA's handling of investigations, and finally,
 4       throughout your submission, you have helpfully included
 5       a number of recommendations that you believe will
 6       resolve the issues identified.
 7           We would like to ask you some questions about the
 8       materials that you have offered to us, and any other
 9       matters relating to our terms of reference, but before
10       we raise these issues with you, however, for the benefit
11       of the transcript, I wonder whether you would formally
12       introduce yourself to the Inquiry, and of course your
13       colleagues.
14   MR LOGAN:  Yes, thank you, chair.  I am Leroy Logan,
15       chairman of the Black Police Association in the
16       Metropolitan Police Service.  I am accompanied by
17       Bevan Powell, the general secretary, together with
18       Gareth Reid and Alfred John, who are the support
19       co-ordinators of our support network.
20   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Mr Logan, before I move to my
21       questions, let me place on the record the following
22       statement.  I know that you are familiar with the terms
23       of reference of this Inquiry.  As you are aware, one
24       aspect of our task is to examine the lessons to be
25       learned from high-profile cases.  These cases, by
 
     5
 1       definition, relate to individuals, and will be dealt
 2       with in the same way as the submissions that we have
 3       received from a number of other individuals.
 4           We have not yet reached that part of our work, and
 5       therefore today we will not be asking questions about
 6       any of the high-profile cases that we will be
 7       considering at some point in the future.
 8           We will, of course, notify the parties concerned
 9       when we have reached that stage of the Inquiry, and we
10       make seek your assistance again on that point.
11                 Questions by SIR WILLIAM MORRIS
12   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Turning to my first question, let me
13       say that I am interested in exploring whether the Met
14       BPA is solely an organisation of police officers working
15       for and on behalf of police officers and staff, or
16       whether you have a campaigning role, a strong
17       campaigning role with links and an agenda in the
18       community; perhaps you can help to expand and enlighten
19       our thoughts in respect of your organisation.
20   MR LOGAN:  As a founder member of the Metropolitan Black
21       Police Association, together with members here in the
22       audience, I recall our initial meeting in April 1993,
23       and it was clear that we had a welfare and support role
24       within the Met Police, but also to echo the concerns and
25       issues of the black community that we are a part of:
 
     6
 1       when I use the term black, as in our submission, I refer
 2       to the shared and common experience of people from
 3       African, African-Caribbean and Asian origins; it is not
 4       an assessment of colour.  So in effect, we have a wide
 5       brief, supporting and focusing on the welfare issues
 6       within the personnel of the Met, as well as building
 7       bridges, strong partnerships with the black community,
 8       especially the hard to hear groups, which we refer to;
 9       not hard to reach, because we believe there are certain
10       groups who would want to hear more from the Met, and
11       also would like to make sure their voices are heard, and
12       that is one of the reasons why we have an internal as
13       well as an external focus. 
14   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  The Met BPA is one of 14 support groups
15       within the Metropolitan Police Service.  Why do officers
16       of the MPS need support groups when your members are all
17       members of a very long established, statutorily
18       supported trade union, it is called the Federation; why
19       are support groups necessary?
20   MR LOGAN:  Well, let me emphasise in the first instance that
21       the BPA is a rankless, gradeless organisation, made up
22       of police officers as well as police staff, and it was
23       as a result of the challenges and barriers that we had
24       faced for a number of years which were put to the
25       Federation for police officers, and the trade unions for
 
     7
 1       police staff.
 2           I truly believe it started from the 1970s, when that
 3       small nucleus of officers came together, and tried in
 4       their own ways to make changes within their own working
 5       environment, but the real catalyst was the Bristol
 6       seminars in 1990, where black officers were required to
 7       attend two-day seminars looking at the high resignation
 8       rates at that time.
 9           There was a parallel process with police staff, they
10       had a similar facilitated process, and those issues were
11       like mirror images, and that is when we came together,
12       from 1990 to 1993, and it was normally in a social
13       setting; it was not only for us as personnel, but also
14       with members of the community.
15           After three years of these various staff support
16       processes, we then started to attract the community, and
17       we thought, well, we have to do something about this.
18       We would start to see solidarity, people identifying
19       with us working in the police service, whether it be
20       sworn or unsworn officers.
21           As a result of that, we said quite clearly that
22       these issues that we have raised for so many years were
23       not being addressed; not necessarily that people do not
24       want to deal with it, I think it was also around they
25       may not have the tools to deal with it, because a lot of
 
     8
 1       our input in all of this is our life skills.
 2           As I said, we are part of the black community, and
 3       we are able to use those experiences, those softer
 4       skills in every aspect of our work, but if we find that
 5       because of our diversity we are not being supported, we
 6       are not being assisted in a way that it should be, then
 7       we feel it, we know it, we have to do something about
 8       it.
 9           That is the ethos of the BPA, highlighting the areas
10       of concern, and making sure that we focus on them, and
11       we have made it quite clear from the beginning, we are
12       not a statutory union or federation, we are a staff
13       support association with a unique and authoritative
14       voice on issues of race and equality, because of our
15       experience and our struggles.
16   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Do you see yourselves as a competitor?
17   MR LOGAN:  I do not see us as a competitor, I see us adding
18       value to these various federations and unions; I see us
19       adding value to the processes and practices of the
20       organisations, but not just to steer and advise, which
21       we have been doing for many years, but also to develop
22       our own policies, and that is why we have developed,
23       within the organisation, the communities and cultural
24       resource unit, which helps to enhance operational
25       delivery in critical and serious major incidents, by
 
     9
 1       having closer contact with communities who normally
 2       would not engage in police activities, and that was
 3       highlighted in the Damilola Taylor investigation.
 4           We have also developed our community engagement and
 5       community empowerment programmes; again, because of the
 6       fact that is being conceived, developed and implemented
 7       by black personnel, we are able to develop stronger and
 8       more sustained programmes, and develop a methodology
 9       that can be replicated elsewhere, that has created some
10       phenomenal outcomes, and I will just touch on one.
11           Earlier this week, one of our youth forum, the young
12       black positive advocates, was shadowing the
13       Commissioner.  Two years ago, that young lady would not
14       even think about speaking to a police officer, much less
15       shadow the Commissioner, and it was because we created
16       the right environment for them to know the skills in
17       themselves, capacity building, develop self-esteem and
18       confidence to operate outside their environment, and not
19       become their environment, and as such, they are able to
20       influence and challenge the thinking of various public
21       and private organisations, and the people of authority
22       in those organisations, and consequently, they feel
23       confident to say to the Commissioner, "I would like to
24       spend one or two days with you".
25           In the debrief that young lady had with the
 
    10
 1       Commissioner, he actually -- it was a fresh approach,
 2       a breath of fresh air for that young lady, that he said
 3       he wants her to be visiting him regularly, and in fact,
 4       she is going places where I have not been able to go, or
 5       my colleagues have not been able to go in the last
 6       20 years.
 7   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  We have taken evidence from the
 8       Federation both at Met level and national level.  Can
 9       you describe for us the MBPA's relationship with the
10       Federation at Met level?
11   MR LOGAN:  Well, even before we launched in September 1994,
12       I remember there was a volley of hostile press
13       statements, that we were breaking up the organisation,
14       we were a splinter group, we were there to disrupt and
15       not to assist, and there were certain pundits who were
16       involved in the Federation at that time, and I think
17       that created an uneasy -- there was an inertia, and
18       there was a distancing.  Because we thought that our
19       aims and objectives were laudable, we were not hiding,
20       we were not in any way holding back from what we saw as
21       important; we kept the Commissioner, Sir Paul Condon,
22       informed of what we were doing.
23           In all honesty, I think by their reaction, we were
24       not surprised, because I think it was, for them,
25       a mission of failure, because we are highlighting issues
 
    11
 1       which they should have been addressing, in terms of race
 2       and equality.
 3           I truly believe that legacy has continued, because
 4       we have not got that closeness that we should do, but we
 5       are saying, "We are not silent partners in this, we
 6       believe we should have strategic alliances within the
 7       Federation as equal in terms of what we add to the
 8       issues of race and equality and staff development, and
 9       working effectively for the community of London".
10           Now as a result of that, they still have a certain
11       amount of difficulty in accepting us on that equal
12       playing field.  They are saying, well, you could join
13       the Federation and come up through the ranks.
14       Unfortunately, the culture of the organisation does not
15       allow that.  One of the things is, in terms of the
16       Federation for police officers, we do not feel confident
17       to even put ourselves forward, because we are relying on
18       our majority culture colleagues to vote us in.  So we
19       actually deselect ourselves from the first instance.
20           Then also, we find that we are again hugging the
21       lower ranks of the Federation, and are not going to
22       influence the strategic issues that are impacting on us
23       all, so in a lot of ways, we find that that is not the
24       best way forward for us.
25           I do not know if Bevan wants to mention anything, in
 
    12
 1       terms of the specific police staff side?
 2   MR POWELL:  I think a number of the issues that Leroy has
 3       highlighted equally apply to the police staff, in terms
 4       of issues of race not being adequately addressed by the
 5       unions, and as Leroy said, through our common experience
 6       of being members of the black community, we believe that
 7       many of these issues we can tackle more effectively.
 8   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Apart from the issues of race, is there
 9       any other issues, policy issues, organisational issues,
10       structural issues, around which you take issue with the
11       Federation?
12   MR LOGAN:  Well, in all honesty, we believe that as
13       an organisation, we should be reflecting diversity
14       throughout, and I think the Federation should be
15       reflecting that, and the unions should be reflecting
16       that, so by definition, they do reflect a strong
17       monocultural emphasis, and I truly believe they are at a
18       disadvantage by being in that position.
19           I remember some years ago being interviewed publicly
20       on this matter, and I said the Federation reflect
21       an institutionally racist organisation within
22       themselves, because they do not have a positive action
23       process --
24   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  But you are all members.
25   MR LOGAN:  We are members, but we are not involved in the
 
    13
 1       process of decision-making and steering where the
 2       Federation is actually going, because we have given
 3       input to the Federation -- a case in point was on the
 4       national arena, they were developing a poster campaign,
 5       and it involved a stereotypical image of a black person,
 6       and it was offset by some comments at the bottom.
 7           We said it would not work, and we gave various
 8       suggestions of how to build on that.  And they totally
 9       ignored it.  In all honesty, they were again seeing it
10       as our input sabotaging what they wanted to do.  Because
11       they had already made up their minds, when we gave our
12       input, and it did not add to what they saw as the
13       solution, they said, "Well, in all honesty, you
14       sabotaged it".  So what is the point of coming to us if
15       you do not want to hear what we have to say?
16   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  But let me explore this with you.  You
17       are automatically a member of this organisation; you are
18       dissatisfied because it is not addressing, shall we say,
19       the racial dimension.  The options are to seek to change
20       it; if you are a member of an organisation, and you
21       believe in it, you are part of it; it is not fulfilling
22       the objectives which you think are important.  So
23       working and changing is one option, or option two is to
24       do what you have done -- not you personally, but what
25       you and your black colleagues have done.
 
    14
 1           The reality, nevertheless, is that whilst you have
 2       taken your expertise away from that organisation, then
 3       they will never change, will they?
 4   MR LOGAN:  Well, let me say we have never taken our
 5       expertise away.  We are more than willing to assist
 6       wherever we can, and we still do that.  In fact, in our
 7       support work -- you know, over the years, the Federation
 8       have seen the value we add in the support work, and the
 9       expertise, and the outcomes as a result of our
10       intervention that the Federation and the reps,
11       especially on the constable branch board, work with us
12       more often than not now, especially when it comes to
13       Fairness at Work issues that involve race and equality.
14       So they are actually seeing some changes.
15   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  But with respect, you are at the
16       periphery; I would not say the margin, but you are at
17       the periphery of that debate.  But the issue of race and
18       diversity has to be at the heart of the debate, and you
19       have convinced a lot of people in the Met and in the
20       country that the repository for that understanding,
21       expertise and sensitivity lies with you and your
22       colleagues, fundamentally because you are part of the
23       victims.
24           It seems to me that if you take that expertise away
25       and coalesce on the periphery, then this great
 
    15
 1       organisation, which is not going to go away, where for
 2       generations more and more black people are going to be
 3       police officers, will never change; do you agree with my
 4       analysis?
 5   MR LOGAN:  I would say that I have a different
 6       interpretation, and that is there is a selection process
 7       in the Federation which we believe is not open to the
 8       diversity you speak about, and we know various members
 9       of the Federation of black and other minority groups
10       have not had the influence that they should have, over
11       a number of years.
12           And then, as police officers in the Federation --
13       and let me also state that police staff in the trade
14       unions do not have that same sort of hostility, they
15       work better, they do work better, but it is still part
16       of the police service.
17           Now I look at comparators, I look at how the
18       Federation receive our points of view, and how the
19       senior management of the police service receive our
20       point of view, and how they actually put their money
21       where their mouth is; they support the programmes that
22       we are developing, internally as well as externally.
23           We have worked with the Federation time and time
24       again, and we say, "Listen, we have shown a business
25       benefit, we have shown how we add value, we want to work
 
    16
 1       with you, but not as silent foot soldiers, we want to
 2       work with you now to make the changes we all want to
 3       see".
 4           Because I truly believe that if there was any way of
 5       doing so, we would have found a way of getting into the
 6       Federation much more, because I look at the collective
 7       experience of all the people involved in the BPA over
 8       the last ten years, and that collective intelligence,
 9       that collective community -- some of them were
10       long-standing Federation representatives, but they were
11       not able to make the changes.
12           Dave Michael, one of the past chairs, he was
13       a Federation rep for a number of years, but he was also
14       chair of the BPA, so I think there is a clear example of
15       where our voices are heard by the organisation, in terms
16       of policy development for the wider piece of the police
17       service, but in terms of the Federation, we do not get
18       the same response.
19   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Let me move you on to section 5 of your
20       submission, reference MBPA 1/24.  You refer to the
21       evidence that we have already heard from some quarters,
22       which suggests that line managers and supervisors are
23       uncomfortable with issues of race discrimination leading
24       to an escalation of disciplinary matters when black and
25       minority ethnic staff are not effectively supervised.
 
    17
 1           You state that such an explanation, and I quote, is
 2       too convenient, and that discrimination continues to
 3       exist in an organisation that is institutionally racist.
 4           Taking the converse view of that, the cynics could
 5       say that some officers from ethnic minority communities
 6       may use race to avoid discipline by their line managers.
 7       What would you say to those cynics?
 8   MR LOGAN:  It might be they do not really understand the
 9       issues, because we have heard the red herring of the
10       race card so many times.  However, we have clear
11       empirical evidence of case studies and testimonies that
12       have been submitted to the Commissioner quite recently,
13       and also in our submission, that shows that people
14       actually will take more than they would normally do
15       because they are trying to convince themselves, "No,
16       this is not happening to me".
17           A lot of the times, they will approach us, whether
18       they are members or not, when literally, they are at
19       breaking point, and this is not just in certain boroughs
20       or departments, but right across the organisation.
21           When you see people suffering like that, you think,
22       well, what allows those outcomes?  What, in a culture,
23       does not stop someone from feeling that way?  Is it
24       because of the way in which they are supported, or
25       discouraged?  Is it around how they are appraised?
 
    18
 1           In one of the submissions, I think it is actually
 2       tied together by just one line, and it actually says,
 3       "My successes were undermined and my failings
 4       magnified", and for me, that has been a constant theme.
 5           I truly believe it is because people are not held to
 6       account for those outcomes.  If you had sanctions, if
 7       you had checks and balances, if the same intrusive
 8       supervision were focused on those hot spots of
 9       activity -- and we can give you hot spots of certain
10       boroughs, certain departments, doing a brilliant job,
11       but we can also show you where other boroughs and
12       departments are doing a less than appropriate job.
13           I do not know if anyone else wants to add?
14   MR JOHN:  I would just like to add to that: I think it is
15       important to remember that people approach us with their
16       problems.  We do not take on every single case, and
17       certainly I know for my circumstances, I turn away most
18       people.  I am a manager myself, within an organisation
19       that I have worked within for the last 18 years.  And in
20       that time, one would hope that it would be easy to spot
21       when in actual fact someone is trying to play the race
22       card.
23           This is not about those issues, but if someone is
24       found to be exhibiting that behaviour, you must remember
25       that it affects so many people, and so many people have
 
    19
 1       fallen by the wayside; for every person that comes
 2       through to the BPA, there are another ten that did not.
 3           We are trying to create an atmosphere of
 4       reconciliation which in a lot of areas and a lot of
 5       cases does not already exist.
 6   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Let me just pursue the held to account 
 7       point that you made earlier.  We have two views, the too
 8       convenient view, which is part of your submission, and
 9       the view that I offer in terms of what some cynics might
10       say.
11           Let me say that whatever the cause, whichever of
12       those views may or may not have credence, what do you
13       see as the solution to the failure of the MPS to
14       properly manage officers and staff from ethnic minority
15       backgrounds?
16   MR LOGAN:  I just put myself in a position where I have run
17       teams on boroughs, and specialist units, and I listened
18       attentively to senior managers that have given evidence
19       thus far, and one of the things that I find to be
20       an area for improvement is how proactive you are.
21           I know certain managers are extremely proactive when
22       it comes to the operational delivery, and they will ask
23       questions, and they will sustain their supervision, they
24       will be coaching, and they will be grooming, and they
25       will be alongside as best they can.
 
    20
 1           But when it comes to Fairness at Work issues,
 2       welfare issues, they distance themselves, and that is
 3       when they lose the eye off the ball, that is when the
 4       early intervention does not actually -- becomes
 5       consistent, that is when certain people absolve
 6       themselves of the responsibility to get out of their
 7       offices and find out what is going on, and be proactive
 8       in that, because it is all around leadership here.  It
 9       is around people showing their leadership in all aspects
10       of their professional and personal lives.
11           The big issue around race and equality and the
12       diversity issue is not nine to five, it is 24/7, and
13       I hear people talk about race and equality and diversity
14       on a regular basis, and they want it now, but they do
15       not have it in their homes, and I really think people
16       need to understand this is a lifestyle, it is around
17       everything that you do is second nature, respecting the
18       individual, responding to their needs.
19           Not necessarily just responding to their demands, 
20       but what needs are important, and I truly believe you
21       cannot just get that through training.  I truly believe
22       it needs to be a culture that identifies where
23       a manager, a supervisor, a leader has taken their eye
24       off the ball, and what we refer to as the diversity
25       thread.  Now, we have seen how the diversity thread can
 
    21
 1       be developed through the diversity access model, as
 2       a means of assessing and reviewing on a regular basis,
 3       in the same way we assess and review our operational
 4       delivery, and making sure those people have direct input
 5       into internal welfare and external delivery of that
 6       department or that borough.
 7           If you do not have that emphasis, then nothing is
 8       measured, nothing is done.
 9   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  You seem to be making a qualitative
10       distinction between operational behaviour and discharge
11       of managerial function, operational, managing the
12       operation, and managing the people or the office,
13       managerial administratively.
14           For the point of reassurance, can you indicate to
15       us, and I hope you are able to say that there is no
16       evidence or complaint that incidents of racism are
17       getting in the way of the highest possible standards of
18       operational policing, or does it?
19   MR LOGAN:  I think we still have certain people who are
20       racist in attitudes.  They know how to style it out,
21       they know how to look good.
22   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Yes, but what I am seeking to establish
23       is: does that inherent, latent or not, attitude of
24       racism -- does it affect operational policing?
25   MR LOGAN:  Well, I was going on to say it must do, if people
 
    22
 1       have those attitudes.  I mean, by definition, a lot of
 2       our values, attitudes and judgments are based on our own
 3       values, and if those values are warped in any way, then
 4       that must affect how decisions you make, the emphasis
 5       you place in your leadership style -- how you manage
 6       your team, so it must play itself out.
 7           What is important, though, is how the organisation
 8       identifies that, because we in the organisation talk
 9       about weeding out racists; that does not necessarily
10       mean people leaving the organisation, it is around
11       heightening that person's awareness as to how their
12       personal values, attitudes and judgments can impact on
13       their colleagues as well as the community.
14   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Any examples, practical ones?
15   MR LOGAN:  Of heightening people's awareness?
16   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  No, of racism impacting on and
17       manifesting itself in operational policing; any
18       examples?
19   MR LOGAN:  I will give an example, actually, we gave to the
20       Lawrence Inquiry, because we still see these sort of
21       themes around this.  It is when there was a rape
22       suspect, and the description of the suspect was so vague
23       that it actually included -- I think it included about
24       50 per cent of black males in the country.
25           And you have to think to yourself: hold on here, if
 
    23
 1       you are going to put a national circulation of
 2       a description like that, you have definitely missed some
 3       important issues around your own assessment; how have
 4       you assessed that information to then disseminate that
 5       sort of description, so vaguely that it would devalue
 6       and stigmatise?
 7           Now I am not saying that everyone who has racist
 8       tendencies does that knowingly, they might not even
 9       realise it, because there is no one to challenge their
10       thinking.  If there was someone able to challenge the
11       thinking of that officer, senior officer, to spread that
12       information across the Met, then I would like to think
13       they would have re-assessed it.
14           You need to have an environment where people feel
15       safe, they feel confident to challenge the thinking of
16       any person in the organisation, in an appropriate
17       fashion, especially if they find those people have
18       prejudices, and especially in a position of power, that
19       will definitely lead to racism.
20           When you have an organisation that is
21       institutionally racist, and they do not have
22       a methodology of assessing where they are within that
23       arena, and how to hold people to account, what sort of
24       sanctions, and then, more importantly, what is the
25       vision, that is when the organisation is floundering,
 
    24
 1       and it is a dilemma, especially when it comes to
 2       internal welfare issues.
 3           Externally, it is improving -- a lot more to do --
 4       but we still have those dysfunctional impacts, in terms
 5       of stop and search and various other discretionary
 6       powers, and we are still seeing it internally.
 7           I think Bevan has a point.
 8   MR POWELL:  I was just going to add to Leroy's points that
 9       conversely, diversity, we believe, brings operational
10       effectiveness, so it brings added value to the
11       operational effectiveness.  Therefore, if we have no
12       diversity within that, then by definition, it is
13       ineffective, particularly when it comes to black
14       minority of the communities, and we -- the disparities,
15       as Leroy has said, in terms of stop and search,
16       disparities in terms of cautioning, et cetera.
17   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Yes, but let us just take it down to
18       street level for a minute.  Are there any examples where
19       an officer, black or white, has needed assistance and
20       has not got that assistance in an operational capacity
21       on the basis of race?  This is street level stuff, when
22       you are in the frontline --
23   MR LOGAN:  Alfred does the support work.
24   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  You require go back or forward, there
25       is no way to go sideways.
 
    25
 1   MR JOHN:  If I could give an example which will probably
 2       explain things a lot better, on how subtly these things
 3       affect operational capacity, on a particular occasion,
 4       and this has happened about three or four times, but on
 5       one particular occasion, a case was received whereby
 6       an officer had in fact been taken off some exemplary
 7       youth work that this particular officer was actually
 8       doing, due to an internal dispute.
 9           On further investigation, it found out that in
10       actual fact, the person who was in contention with this
11       particular officer had in fact been the root of several
12       other problems over a period of years.
13           Now to a lesser extent, the particular officer in
14       question -- not the victim but the so-called
15       perpetrator -- is a victim to that extent, because it is
16       over a number of years that no one is actually pulling
17       this officer up, no one to say anything whatsoever to
18       this particular officer who was causing the problems,
19       actually perpetuates the need for that particular
20       officer to continue.
21           And over a period of years, the lines between right
22       and wrong do get muddy, and it is displayed in the
23       attitudes of these officers when you sit to try and
24       explain, but it has only been born out of a number of
25       years of exhibiting that type of behaviour with no
 
    26
 1       challenge.
 2   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Okay, thank you.
 3   MR LOGAN:  I actually have an example; it is actually in our
 4       undisclosed piece.  I will not mention the officer's
 5       name.
 6   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  No, sure.
 7   MR LOGAN:  The evidence that we are aware of is that the
 8       supervisor of that officer looked at his own
 9       professional behaviour differently in comparison to his
10       majority culture colleagues, and it was around his
11       appearance at a parade.
12           However, there were some underlying issues that led
13       to the way in which he was being dealt with, because he
14       was served with a discipline notice because of his
15       appearance at a parade, and he believes it was racially
16       motivated because the way in which an issue had been
17       dealt with on the street.
18           So it is not necessarily that he has challenged the
19       organisation internally, but he has challenged
20       externally how they dealt with an operational matter.
21       I am being very tentative here, because I do not want to
22       disclose the details of the person.
23           But it started to play itself out, not in responding
24       to an assistance, because I would like to think my
25       colleagues would not fail to respond to an officer in
 
    27
 1       need of assistance, but it started to play itself out in
 2       the way in which misconduct issues were being focused on
 3       him, so he was challenging an operational matter, he was
 4       now being seen as a problem, and so he was being dealt
 5       with differently than his majority culture colleagues.
 6           It started to develop into a form of intimidation,
 7       bullying, damage to personal property, and he actually
 8       reported it to his supervisors.  Unfortunately, he was
 9       not getting the support he believed that was needed, and
10       he came to us; as Alfred has actually stated, people
11       come to us, trust me, because of our own primary roles.
12       We do not go looking for business.  We are proactive if
13       need be; however, we have an increasing caseload,
14       because they are not getting the support and
15       encouragement within their boroughs and departments; in
16       fact, it is quite the opposite, they are getting
17       discouraged, they are lacking confidence in the system,
18       and that includes the statutory support organisations
19       and the unions that should be helping them.  A lot of
20       times they go to the Federation or they go to the
21       unions, whoever that member of staff is, and they might
22       not get the assistance they need, and because they see
23       a shared and common experience in the BPA, they will
24       come to us.
25   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  One of your organisation
 
    28
 1       recommendations to us is for the appointment of
 2       an independent ombudsperson to oversee complaints and
 3       grievance in the MPS.  Could you help us here, because
 4       we are not quite clear as to where the boundaries should
 5       be drawn.
 6           Do you envisage, for example, such an ombudsperson
 7       having a role in relation to the formal disciplinary,
 8       investigatory role of the directorate for professional
 9       standards, as well as the Fairness at Work procedures,
10       or it just would be limited to the Fairness at Work
11       procedures?  We are not quite clear precisely in what
12       context you would see the role of the ombudsperson.
13   MR LOGAN:  I think the ombudsperson would have to take right
14       across the piece, because in a lot of ways that early
15       intervention in that Fairness at Work issue can actually
16       prevent it going to an employment tribunal or
17       a misconduct issue or whatever.
18           We are just reflecting on Lord Ouseley's report, he
19       made two reports, and the second one actually
20       highlighted the role of an ombudsperson, because
21       I really think there needs to be someone sitting in
22       judgment, as the checks and balances, within these
23       issues.
24   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  But given, and you know better than
25       I do, I am the learner here, but given that some aspects
 
    29
 1       of the procedure are statutorily provided for, some
 2       aspects may even run into criminal proceedings, and we
 3       now have a new organisation today, the Independent
 4       Police Complaints Commission; if you divorce the
 5       Fairness at Work procedures just for the moment -- we
 6       will come back to that -- where would the ombudsperson's
 7       role start and finish from the directorate of
 8       professional standards, all the way through.  Just take
 9       it chunk by chunk and help me here.
10   MR LOGAN:  Well, I must admit, I am reluctant to theorise,
11       but I think --
12   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Well, practically.
13   MR LOGAN:  Practically, I think we need someone who knows
14       the system of the organisation, who knows the regulatory
15       processes of the misconduct and discipline issues.  It
16       needs to be someone who is able to spot where the areas
17       of concern are, and leaving the Fairness at Work issues
18       aside, they need to have the clout to make it quite
19       clear in the DPS that here is a case, through dip
20       sampling, possibly, or the high-profile cases, and
21       taking the recommendations of the Lancet review --
22   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Hold on, an ombudsperson reaches
23       a decision, and what you are describing is more
24       supervision than decision, because the argument is
25       that -- you have time issues, you have a whole range of
 
    30
 1       issues, and what we read in the context of this 
 2       submission, the supporting paragraphs, indicates that
 3       the ombudsperson would be able to determine; we have set
 4       aside Fairness at Work, and just talk about conduct of
 5       the disciplinary process, which is there, you understand
 6       it and you know how it works; just apply your knowledge
 7       of how it works and share with us how the
 8       ombudsperson -- not just supervising or checking, but
 9       deciding because that, by definition is what an
10       ombudsperson is -- it is almost a last resort,
11       historically.
12   MR LOGAN:  Yes, but I truly believe the state of the
13       processes within the organisation at this present time
14       need an ombudsperson to look at the processes; I do not
15       think they could just look at cases without knowing the
16       processes, and I think some dip sampling would assist
17       that person to know the processes, how it works; it is
18       the nuances of it.
19           Having been involved in looking at the misconduct
20       issue, how it is dealt with -- not only just internally,
21       but externally -- it is important for that individual to
22       have a clear understanding of the processes.
23           But more importantly, that person needs to be able
24       to look at the case and give some clear, definitive --
25       what they see as the solutions to assist the
 
    31
 1       organisation.  There needs to be systems that make sure
 2       that that person is in the loop, whenever a case is
 3       starting to create, you know, issues for the
 4       organisation; not just problems, but I think there are
 5       some valuable learning points for the organisation.
 6           Now I see it is important for that person or a team
 7       of persons to be able to look at all stages of cases
 8       and, you know, give clear judgment on the merits of that
 9       case.
10   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  I mean, would you extend that to the
11       Fairness at Work procedures as well?
12   MR LOGAN:  Well, it depends on the capacity and the
13       resilience of that person or that individual, but
14       I truly believe once you develop that sort of culture of
15       checks and balances, and having external scrutiny for
16       greater accountability and transparency, it will go all
17       the way along the process.
18           Because what we are talking about here is around
19       changing the structures to change the whole culture; we
20       in the organisation have been working towards changing
21       the culture, and hopefully that will have an impact on
22       the culture -- on the structures, rather, but for us, we
23       need to have critical interventions to start to evolve
24       the structures, and misconduct and discipline is
25       definitely an area where we can have quick wins on that,
 
    32
 1       quick wins for the clients, for the organisation as
 2       a whole.
 3           I believe Alfred has a point he wants to add.
 4   MR JOHN:  If I could just add there, from the point of view
 5       of the Metropolitan Police, we are here to look at some
 6       of these problems, where our services are required to
 7       give some sort of justice to a given situation, but from
 8       the Metropolitan Police point of view, even the
 9       Federation, from the unions, they are at two opposite
10       ends.  You have the Met, who will be defensive, and the
11       Federation and the PCS will obviously defend the people
12       that come to see them.
13   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  We know the psychology.  What we are
14       looking at is the practicality.  We are well-versed in
15       the psychology.  It is the practical step by step, that
16       is what we are looking at, because at the end of the
17       day, we are charged with writing a report, making
18       a recommendation, and there is no point recommending
19       propositions which do not stand up organisationally and
20       structurally.
21           So this is a proposal, it is not just a narrative
22       here, we are being invited to make this recommendation,
23       and what I am asking is: could you please educate me as
24       to how this recommendation could be practically applied
25       within the context of the existing system?  Where would
 
    33
 1       it start?  What would we need to change?  The statute,
 2       the practice, the policies internally, in terms of the
 3       directorate here?  We want step-by-step guidance on this
 4       recommendation if we are to explore it further.  Is that
 5       clear?
 6   MR JOHN:  Yes, that is fine.
 7   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  We know the psychology, we know the
 8       politics, we know the environment, we know the culture.
 9       But what we want is the practical step-by-step guidance
10       as far as this -- well, as far as all recommendations
11       are concerned.
12   MR JOHN:  As far as Leroy has intimated -- what he has
13       intimated is it is not just an easy situation to take
14       out a particular part of the process and say, "At this
15       point, this is when an ombudsperson will actually" --
16   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  All right, let me help you.  Could you
17       please let us have a paper, which you will have more
18       time -- you are right, you cannot just pick out a bit in
19       the time available this afternoon, but can I invite you
20       to let this Inquiry have a considered paper as to how
21       an ombudsperson would work in terms of the conduct and
22       disciplinary process as it stands today, as well as, if
23       you wanted to, also including Fairness at Work.
24   MR LOGAN:  If I can say that Lord Ouseley's report, the
25       second report does touch on that.
 
    34
 1   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  We read it.
 2   MR LOGAN:  So we need to also be aware of -- there is a need
 3       to reform the regulation, and I think the ombudsperson
 4       would have to be operating within that new reform piece,
 5       and I truly think that person would actually assist in
 6       that process.
 7           So you need to give me a bit more clarity on where
 8       you would want the specifics of --
 9   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  It is your recommendation, we know what
10       the politics is, we know the culture, we know the
11       psychology, we know the whole framework, the environment
12       within which it goes.  You know better than I do the
13       existing structure.  You are proposing a practical
14       physical change.  The onus and the responsibility is on
15       you -- your organisation, not you personally -- to
16       demonstrate, on a step-by-step basis, how this proposed
17       new practical change would work in practice.
18           I think we should leave it there, because I am
19       inviting you to submit further evidence on that
20       particular recommendation.
21   MR LOGAN:  I was only seeking clarity, Chairman.
22   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Fine, okay.  Right, can I take you to
23       paragraph 2.10 of your submission?  You refer to the
24       ACAS mediation model, and you have indicated that it is
25       a model -- or one similar would be of value and
 
    35
 1       assistance.  Would you see this as a permanent feature
 2       of the conflict resolution process within the MPS?
 3   MR LOGAN:  Well, I will start and I will pass on to Alfred.
 4       Especially when it comes to employment tribunals, once
 5       an ET1 is registered with the employment tribunals, the
 6       ACAS facility is offered, statutorily.
 7   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Sure.
 8   MR LOGAN:  I do not think it has been used effectively; so
 9       we are not reinventing the wheel here, all we are saying
10       is let us use that process more effectively, because we
11       have seen a speedy turnover of long-standing employment
12       tribunals, and the majority of them have developed
13       a resolution where all sides of the debate have agreed.
14           Now just by the fact that we have been able to
15       kick-start that process, which has been sitting there
16       lying dormant for a number of years, that we believe the
17       ACAS process is worthy of note, and to be utilised more
18       effectively and consistently, hopefully from the
19       learning points that we have developed with the
20       diversity directorate through Commander Allen working
21       with us closely, and with the Met Police authority.
22           I do not know if you want to add, Alfred?
23   MR JOHN:  I totally endorse that.  We need only look at the
24       success rates over the last few months over these
25       long-standing cases to know that it has made
 
    36
 1       a significant difference.
 2           We do appreciate the Met's position, in that it
 3       would be a defensive one, purely because of the fact
 4       that they are not in a position to be impartial.  They
 5       are the respondents, and they are in the same position
 6       as the applicant.  Having that independence there not
 7       only helps the process but it also adds integrity to the
 8       decisions that are finally made, and that is the salient
 9       point.
10   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Okay, let us take this practically.
11       Mr Logan is absolutely correct, it is part of the
12       statutory process that once you lodge the ET1, ACAS is
13       involved, they have a mandatory duty, they see it as
14       part of conciliation.  What we want to be clear about is
15       whether you are arguing for ACAS to have a more
16       proactive role at that point, because ACAS comes in
17       before you get into the tribunal, as ACAS, which is
18       a statutory body; or are you arguing for some structure
19       of mediation, and I will use your words, you describe it
20       as mediation, and generally speaking, ACAS arbitrates,
21       but we will not split hairs.
22           What I am saying is ACAS is already there, you can
23       use ACAS as much as you wish, because they are
24       a voluntary organisation in that sense, but are you
25       arguing for a more active role for ACAS, or are you
 
    37
 1       saying that some sort of mediation, a model -- the same
 2       model but different organisations -- we can create one,
 3       you can appoint mediators, or a panel of mediators to
 4       assist and help, which perform, broadly speaking, the
 5       same role.
 6           Again, we are looking for some clarity, whether it
 7       is ACAS you want or whether you want a mediation model,
 8       in which case you can have a model of a one person
 9       mediator, or a two or three person mediator, whatever.
10   MR LOGAN:  In our submission, we do talk about the role of
11       ACAS in the Ali Dizaei case, and how that was extremely
12       important in coming to a resolution around that, and how
13       the methodology that we incorporated, calling in ACAS,
14       to have -- what they actually did was bring their skills
15       of mediation into an environment where I do not think we
16       are that skilled, or we have not developed those skills
17       as we should, so they were able to give us some clarity
18       as to the issues on specific cases.
19           In a lot of ways, they did, I suppose, hold the role
20       as the judge and jury, to assist a decision to be made;
21       not to make the final decision, but to say, "Listen, on
22       the merits of this, you should consider going down the
23       ET route or coming to some form of mediation".
24           So all we are saying is embrace the ACAS process
25       within all these cases where they have not been used
 
    38
 1       before, and take the lawyers out of it, and use the
 2       stakeholders, whether it is the MPS, the MPA, even the
 3       Home Office, to assist especially in those high-profile
 4       cases that are creating so much damage for the
 5       organisation, in terms of staff confidence and community
 6       confidence.  So that is all we are saying, is embrace
 7       how ACAS can assist -- because they have the skills,
 8       their personnel have looked at these issues, and can
 9       give us value when it comes to decision-making.
10           I think Bevan wants to make a point.
11   MR POWELL:  I think alongside that model, at the moment, at
12       the top level of the model is informal review of the
13       particular case, and at the moment, Commander Allen
14       within the Met looks at that, and we believe that the
15       Metropolitan Police needs to put more resources into
16       that, because you cannot just have one person, you know,
17       at a senior level, being able to review what could
18       become hundreds of cases.
19           So a proper structure needs to be built in order to
20       support the underlying ACAS model.
21   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Yes.  Let me just share with you part
22       of our function, our prime function, and I hope you will
23       understand what it is we are trying to do.
24           We are here to get evidence, we need absolute firm,
25       clear evidence; that is the only purpose of the
 
    39
 1       exercise.  And from the evidence that we get, we hope to
 2       get some recommendations, that is why we are probing to
 3       have a very clear understanding of what it is that you
 4       are saying.
 5           Because I have already said, and you know, that in
 6       every single case that is lodged at an employment
 7       tribunal, there is a mandatory statutory role for ACAS
 8       to try and conciliate -- the extent to which they try
 9       and conciliate is up to the parties.
10           Now I am not sure in what capacity ACAS entered the
11       arena on the recent settlements.  It would be
12       interesting to know in what capacity they entered,
13       whether they entered for mediation, as has been
14       indicated, or whether they entered just informally.
15       That would be a very important point.
16           But if you set ACAS aside for a moment, just for
17       a moment, forget the name, are you saying that you would
18       find interesting or be supportive of a model which would
19       have built in a mediation stage, as early as possible?
20   MR LOGAN:  Yes, absolutely.
21   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  That is what we want to be very clear
22       about, because ACAS is a name, and the difference
23       between ACAS and other names is that they have
24       a statutory role along with other roles, and if they can
25       do it, fine, but if they are not able to do it, then
 
    40
 1       providing the model has the same objective for
 2       mediation, then basically that is what you want us to
 3       look at.
 4   MR LOGAN:  I think it is worthy of further review, and we
 5       have the outcomes to show the added value that ACAS
 6       brings up.
 7   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Fine, well, we would be happy to have
 8       another half side of A4 on that as well.
 9           I just have one point I just want to put, and then
10       I think what we will do after this is to have a break,
11       for the benefit of the stenographers.
12           I said right at the start of my introduction that we
13       were not just interested in what is wrong with the Met,
14       we wanted to hear what is right with it, but more
15       importantly about what we need to do to make it better.
16       It has also been suggested to us that, as any inquiry,
17       we have an unenviable task, but be that as it may, we
18       have to produce a report, and the report will affect
19       your organisation as well as many other organisations.
20           You are the chair of the Met BPA, and you are aware
21       of all the problems, but we are looking for solutions as
22       well as problems.
23           If we were to invite you to write just one chapter
24       of our report, what would it say?
25   MR LOGAN:  In the beginning ...
 
    41
 1   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  In the end ...
 2   MR LOGAN:  I will actually start -- because I know I am the
 3       chair, but I am very fortunate to have a team of very
 4       talented people, both police officers and police staff,
 5       as part of the team, and the wider membership, let me
 6       add, because they have actually put themselves above the
 7       parapet to challenge not only at the strategic level but
 8       at the local level, wherever they may operate.
 9           So I have not got the total vision here, because it
10       is a collective intelligence, a collective wisdom.  But
11       if there was an emphasis on a chapter, my chapter would
12       start around: why do we want to have a diverse
13       organisation?  Do we truly understand what that is for?
14           Because I hear about targets, and I welcome them, as
15       long as everyone is cognisant of why we want to have
16       a diverse workforce.
17           My chapter would be saying, well -- and I will ask
18       my colleagues to comment; we need to change the
19       environment of the organisation so that we actually
20       attract people from all communities, and the Met Police
21       and other police areas across the country will be seen
22       as employers of choice.
23           We need to acknowledge that we all have a role to
24       play, personally and collectively.  It is not different
25       hats we wear, it is or should be through our entire
 
    42
 1       being, because if we approach our task collectively,
 2       understanding the added value that we all contribute to
 3       improve that environment, then I truly believe we will
 4       start to acknowledge assistances where they are given,
 5       and not seeing them as problems.
 6           I know we have respect in the BPA -- a lot of people
 7       respect us grudgingly, because they know that we assist,
 8       they know that we add value, but they still do not
 9       really acknowledge what we are here for, and that is to
10       move the organisation on to be embracing the diverse
11       workforce more efficiently and effectively, and so
12       deliver a more effective and efficient service to the
13       community, that diverse community, whether it be London
14       or any other town or city in this country.
15           So that is what my chapter would be talking about.
16       We are talking about hearts and minds, and I know there
17       is a lot of very talented people in this organisation,
18       which we are all proud to be a part of, but there would
19       be so much more if they were talking with their heart as
20       well as their head, because then, by definition, you
21       would be understanding of all these issues we are
22       talking about -- I am not saying there would be total
23       utopia, I do not think we will ever get that, in my
24       lifetime anyway, but I would like to think that we start
25       to utilise the legislation, like the Race Relations
 
    43
 1       (Amendment) Act, we start to utilise the Human Rights
 2       Act, we start to utilise all these processes and
 3       practices in a more efficient way, so that we do not
 4       have these re-occurring cases, because the case of
 5       Gurpal Virdi is superimposed by the case of Ali Dizaei,
 6       and so forth, and then we have the smaller cases which
 7       do not have the high profile, and they are people
 8       suffering.
 9           We are talking about people suggesting suicide, so
10       we are dealing with people's lives here, and I do not
11       think anyone is underestimating it, but they need to be
12       sitting in our seats, and standing in our shoes, to know
13       what is happening, because I heard a submission earlier
14       this week where if someone can bring the evidence to me,
15       I will do something about it; it is not like that, you
16       need to be getting out of your office and finding out
17       exactly what is happening in your organisation, in your
18       teams, and do not underestimate the capacity for people
19       to style things out, that it all is well.
20           You have to get behind all the spin and really find
21       out the substance; that is my chapter.  But I have
22       enough work from you, sir, so I will leave it at that.
23   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Okay.  I could comment, but I will not. 
24       Anyway, thank you for that.  We will adjourn now for
25       about five or so minutes.  Could members of the public
 
    44
 1       please remain seated while the witnesses leave the room
 2       if they want to, thank you.
 3   (3.20 pm)
 4                         (A short break)
 5   (3.27 pm)
 6   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Right, welcome back.  Could I ask
 7       Miss Weekes to just pick up from where I left off with
 8       her range of questions?
 9                     Questions by MISS WEEKES
10   MISS WEEKES:  Thank you very much.  Mr Logan and your
11       colleagues, good afternoon.  I would like to deal with
12       three topics: Fairness at Work will be the first; then
13       I would like to deal with changing attitudes and
14       changing the culture.  The third will be gender.
15           But before I start my topics, may I pick up one
16       topic from the chairman, which were his questions in
17       relation to the stance that your organisation has taken
18       in relation to the Federation?
19           On a similar vein, and it is not my intention to
20       discuss the case, but to discuss the decision that your
21       organisation took, and it was the boycott which was
22       a recent decision.  We all now know that the boycott was
23       ended the day this Inquiry began, but I would like your
24       comments and assistance, please, on this: it may be
25       thought by some members of the wider public, possibly
 
    45
 1       some members of the police force, black and white, that
 2       the boycott sent a very negative message as to what your
 3       organisation is about when it takes on the issue of
 4       making life better in the police force for visible
 5       ethnic minorities, and ensuring that you take with you
 6       white managers and white officers.
 7           Can you assist?
 8   MR LOGAN:  Well, let me say, first of all, that the decision
 9       for the boycott was a collective decision.  It was done
10       so reluctantly, but on the basis of a series of cases
11       that had been put to the organisation, Federation and
12       unions alike, and really not getting the action that was
13       required.  We were seeing people suffering.
14           We saw, through the Ali Dizaei case, again, how our
15       organisation was being compromised, or attempts to
16       compromise our organisation, over three years.
17           We have been highlighting the issues to all levels
18       of the police service, not just in the Met, but right
19       across the police, through the National Black Police
20       Association, and we were not getting the acknowledgment
21       that we had been highlighting since 1998, when we had
22       the interim executive of the NBPA saying, "There is
23       a backlash to the Lawrence Inquiry, there is a backlash
24       to the recommendations in 1999, and we are seeing
25       an increased caseload without anyone being held to
 
    46
 1       account".
 2           We now see a high-profile case involving
 3       Superintendent Dizaei, and you think to yourself, well,
 4       who is going to be held to account for this?  Someone
 5       needs to capture all of the processes and practices that
 6       led to this situation where millions of pounds have been
 7       spent, and we -- similar to everything that we do, we
 8       looked at a very, very thorough assessment, and the
 9       impact of it internally and externally, but in the end,
10       it was a unanimous decision of our executive and our
11       wider membership, in that it was drastic times,
12       requiring drastic measures, to get the attention of the
13       Home Office, the Police Authority, the management board,
14       the various stakeholders who could really look at this
15       issue once and for all.
16   MISS WEEKES:  Do you think you have got their attention?
17   MR LOGAN:  Absolutely.
18   MISS WEEKES:  In what way?
19   MR LOGAN:  Well, we got the personal intervention of the
20       Home Secretary, he came to the NBPA AGM a week after
21       that boycott was called, and he said personally he was
22       going to intervene in some key issues that we had
23       highlighted, the issue of Operation Helios, the way in
24       which that was carried out, and the outcomes, at the
25       expense of millions of pounds of public money; also, the
 
    47
 1       long-standing employment tribunals that had been stalled
 2       by Liversidge.
 3           We also wanted to look at issues regarding Hendon,
 4       which is supposed to be the centrepiece of excellence in
 5       police training terms, not only in this country, but
 6       I would suggest the world, because we have people from
 7       all over the world that attend courses at Hendon.
 8           So here we saw the Home Secretary looking at this,
 9       and hopefully I am not misquoting, but he said he is
10       going to make his presence felt, he is going to lean on
11       people.
12           Now it was a wake-up call for everyone, and I know
13       that we had an impact.  It was not -- you know, it was
14       a negative impact for a lot of people, I understand, but
15       the Secret Policeman programme vindicated a lot of the
16       things we had been saying, that racism was alive and
17       well, not only just as an institution, but also
18       personally, and not so much on a personal level, and
19       people challenge, but people were condoning it, and for
20       me, condoning it is as bad as the perpetrator.
21           No one could say to us, "Well, you have
22       underestimated it"; we said, "Welcome to our world, this
23       has been our world for a number of years", and I truly
24       believe you have certain interventions like that over
25       a number of years, and it all happened at that specific
 
    48
 1       point.
 2           So I truly believe, you know, that it needed to be
 3       done at that time, and I truly believe we have got this
 4       Inquiry as a result of putting the pressure on certain
 5       people who needed to make a decision.
 6           They may have done it some years down the road, or
 7       months, but I truly believe it was a catalyst towards
 8       this very point.
 9           I know Gareth has a point --
10   MISS WEEKES:  Just before he does, can I just follow that
11       through by saying this -- and I again welcome your
12       comments.  You have got the Inquiry, we are going to
13       make recommendations in our report, because that is part
14       of our duties.  These recommendations, if they work at
15       all, are totally dependent upon a consistent, continued
16       joint effort.  Do we have that from you and your
17       organisation?
18   MR LOGAN:  Absolutely.  I think what is really important is
19       that we all have our day jobs, we all have our primary
20       roles.  We live this because we have no choice.  If we
21       do not do it, no one else will, and I know a lot of
22       people in the organisation might say, "We do not need
23       you", but I know numerous people have benefitted from
24       the points we have raised over the years, and we have
25       evidenced that.
 
    49
 1           So we would be losing total focus if we did not
 2       focus on these recommendations, because in a lot of
 3       ways, and I do not mean to be flippant, this is our
 4       baby; we have given birth to this, and we are going to
 5       take care of that baby, to make sure it grows.
 6   MISS WEEKES:  Your colleague wanted to add something.
 7   MR REID:  I just wanted to add clarity around this issue of
 8       the recruitment boycott.  I think it is important for
 9       the Inquiry to understand that this was not just
10       an issue of Ali Dizaei -- his case indeed acted as
11       a catalyst, but what it did was focused our attention
12       and understanding on the issue of retention, maintaining
13       a critical base, a critical mass of black police
14       officers, police staff, within the organisation.
15           The emphasis with our organisation is on
16       recruitment, and we are saying: how can we concentrate
17       on recruitment when we are haemorrhaging, we are
18       haemorrhaging badly?  What are the causes of people
19       leaving our organisation prematurely?
20           It was on that basis that we argued, well, there is
21       little point in emphasising recruitment if we cannot
22       keep the people that are already within it, it is in
23       that context.
24   MISS WEEKES:  Okay, thank you very much.  Can I turn to
25       Fairness at Work, please?  We are all, on the panel, 
 
    50
 1       particularly interested in Fairness at Work, not just
 2       because it replaces the old grievance procedure, but
 3       because this is the first step on the ladder to early
 4       resolution of disputes.
 5           It is the most important aspect of the relationship
 6       of a police officer and police staff at work; am
 7       I correct?
 8   MR LOGAN:  Yes, absolutely.
 9   MISS WEEKES:  So can I ask you: what is the successful
10       aspect of Fairness at Work since it has been introduced?
11   MR LOGAN:  Well, I will just start by saying that it has
12       built on a lot of learning from the grievance procedure,
13       and I would just like to emphasise that the grievance
14       procedure was a direct result of those Bristol seminars,
15       because the various working groups that emerged from
16       those seminars in 1990 led to the development of that
17       grievance procedure; again, members of the BPA were
18       instrumental in developing that grievance procedure, and
19       maintaining it, such as George Rhoden and Paul Wilson,
20       very important in developing that.  So there was a lot
21       of learning that the Fairness at Work has built in.
22           I truly believe that it has taken the learning from
23       that by speeding up the process, because the grievance
24       procedure was painfully slow, and we found that people
25       who were aggrieved in that process were being
 
    51
 1       stigmatised, they were being burdened by the process, it
 2       was victim-driven.
 3           We now have a process that the advisors can take
 4       a lot more ownership of this, and the burden is not down
 5       to the victim to be pushing and pushing and pushing.
 6       That for us is really important, and we are starting to
 7       see again a lot more of the issues the client is
 8       mentioning in their grievances being fed back into that
 9       borough or that department, so we actually are seeing
10       some quick turnover of the learning.
11   MR JOHN:  If I can just add to that, we have mentioned a lot
12       about the grievance procedure, but the process of
13       Fairness at Work, impartiality is imperative, and the
14       old grievance procedure placed managers and victims in a
15       very difficult position.  It could be the same manager
16       who also socialises with this particular person who is
17       also charged with the responsibility of dealing with the
18       grievance; that was a very difficult situation.
19           Fairness at Work has relieved managers of that
20       particular responsibility and assigned it to somebody
21       who is impartial; I feel that the scales of justice are
22       balanced on a pivot of impartiality, and it was
23       imperative.
24           As Leroy has mentioned, timescales have been reduced
25       significantly, so it does not afford people to get
 
    52
 1       entrenched.  The problem is viewed, it is assessed with
 2       an aim to basically resolve this as quickly as possible.
 3           I think also, one of the most salient points, it is
 4       also centrally controlled.  The first stage of the
 5       Fairness at Work policy assigns somebody who is within
 6       that borough but not part of the management chain.  The
 7       second stage cannot even be appointed by the borough and
 8       goes back to the Fairness at Work co-ordinator.  That
 9       has to be a better way of dealing with things, certainly
10       over the grievance procedure.
11           But I must add that these policies are only as good
12       as those that wish or choose to apply it, and even the
13       grievance process, there were some great points in the
14       grievance process, but the timescales were lapsed
15       because no one challenged them.
16   MISS WEEKES:  Do your membership as a whole think that this
17       is a better way of doing things?
18   MR JOHN:  Most definitely.
19   MISS WEEKES:  Can I just put to you what we heard very
20       clearly from the Met trade unions from this morning?
21       They are the trade union reps, as you know, for the
22       staff side, and they represent some 12,000 police staff.
23       They say they are most anxious to go back to a central
24       pool of HR individuals dealing with it, to go back
25       effectively to HR, because they do not find the
 
    53
 1       independence of those who deal with Fairness at Work to
 2       be sufficient.  What do you say about that?
 3   MR JOHN:  I do not agree with that.  First and foremost,
 4       even in the statement, they do not have 12,000 members
 5       within the Met, they have less than 6,000, as far as
 6       membership is concerned.  PCS is over 300,000-strong
 7       from other organisations.
 8   MISS WEEKES:  It may be my mistake, I think I am quoting
 9       12,000 as the figure of staff, but I understand that
10       point.
11   MR JOHN:  The truth of the matter is that I do not believe
12       that the right way forward is to take away the
13       imperative of managers to manage.  The whole truth is
14       that the Fairness at Work procedure gives us the
15       opportunity and gives the Met the opportunity that
16       managers out there will be able to deal with these
17       matters properly.  By dealing with it centrally, central
18       staff do not sit with these staff to deal with
19       disciplinaries.  They will get a case -- yes, they may
20       remain independent, but getting out there, seeing what
21       the circumstances are like, seeing what the environment
22       is like, and having some control still maintained by
23       local managers so that they become empowered to deal
24       with these situations I feel is a much better system
25       than actually dragging everything back centrally.
 
    54
 1           We have seen on regards to employment tribunals how
 2       things can get dragged out, we have seen over the last
 3       grievance process how things can get dragged out, and
 4       I believe we will go down that road again if we go back
 5       to a central system.  Bearing in mind the weight, the
 6       number, the sheer volume of cases that come through, we
 7       will not have the resources to deal with it at a central
 8       point.
 9   MR LOGAN:  I was just going to take the point of
10       empowerment, because you have to go through that process
11       to get those skills and abilities to feel confident in
12       dealing with these matters, especially when it comes to
13       complex matters of race, equality, whether it be -- and
14       gender issues, because I have heard time and time again
15       around people feeling uncomfortable, "Well, you need to
16       go through that uncomfortable process to get the
17       learning, to get the confidence to apply your skills".
18       So you cannot empower people, you have to give them the
19       opportunities to develop their skills to become
20       empowered to deal with these matters; no pain, no gain,
21       that is basically it.  You have to go through that
22       difficulty to get the skills to develop and work, you
23       know, on a practical basis.
24   MISS WEEKES:  Well, just help me with this, Mr Logan: there
25       are some people in this world who are very good
 
    55
 1       professionally at what they do, but the moment you give
 2       them a management role that involves personnel skills,
 3       they are hopeless.  Now I think you will agree with me,
 4       genuinely some people cannot do it; what is your
 5       comment?
 6   MR LOGAN:  I do not think anyone is not able to do it.
 7       Maybe they have not surrounded themselves with the right
 8       sort of people to get the information.  It is like this
 9       group of people here; I do not have all the skills, but
10       I know a person that does, and I know a person I can go
11       to, and do not believe that you have all the answers.
12           Because we are an organisation that is so task
13       focused, success driven, and it unfortunately reduces
14       the inclination to ask, because some people think that
15       shows weakness or a lack of credibility and experience,
16       and I truly believe once you get over that and start
17       saying, "Well, I do not have all the answers, let me go
18       and ask certain people", whether it is within my team,
19       in my department, or let me ask members of the
20       community; you know, bring in some professionals on
21       this.  "How would you deal with this?"  Then I can see
22       them again developing.
23           It is not an overnight process, but start asking
24       those questions, I am sure that will help that person to
25       become better than hopeless.
 
    56
 1   MISS WEEKES:  Do you as an organisation tell us, as
 2       absolutely everybody else does, in every conceivable
 3       report I have ever written, that more training is
 4       needed?
 5   MR LOGAN:  Not at all.  Before Alfred jumps in, I do not
 6       believe training makes anyone a racist or a sexist, and
 7       I do not believe any training will reverse that.  It is
 8       around people's awareness and understanding and
 9       sensitivity to the needs of people.
10           So I do not think we mention anything about a focus
11       on training; what we hopefully will see is a proper
12       assessment being made in those circumstances for that
13       individual or that team, and where the gaps are, you
14       assist, and if that developmental aspect can be assisted
15       by training, then yes, but blanket-bombing training we
16       question very, very heavily, because after Lawrence, one
17       of the recommendations was community race relations
18       training, millions of pounds spent, thousands of people
19       trained, and I have to question: what are the outcomes?
20       No one can answer us, because there was no evaluation
21       done and no follow-up.
22   MISS WEEKES:  Put yourself in my position.  Think again to
23       what our role is and what our task is, to make sensible,
24       robust, practical recommendations.
25           If I am to pick up your wording and put it into
 
    57
 1       a recommendation, it will sound like this: no more
 2       training, we have had quite enough, we need awareness.
 3       What does awareness mean?  How do I put that into
 4       practical recommendations?  What do you mean by that?
 5   MR LOGAN:  Well, you can go through various processes.  I am
 6       going to bring in Bevan in a minute, because he has
 7       actually been doing that in a specialist operation role,
 8       but we need to start to develop tools to assist people,
 9       because we can put them in a classroom setting, very
10       sterile, and say, "Right, go and deal with that", but
11       I think there needs to be an ongoing process of
12       evaluation and assessing your performance.
13           That is one of the reasons why we highlighted the
14       diversity excellence model, because the excellence model
15       is something that has been used in the organisation for
16       a number of years, everyone can identify with that.
17           But if you start to have a degradation of the
18       diversity issues, whether it be race, gender and so
19       forth, and you actually have a qualitative assessment,
20       so you are evaluating it all the time, you then start to
21       get an understanding, more of an understanding of what
22       needs to be done within your working environment.
23           It is not a question of just working harder on this,
24       it is just to be a bit more sophisticated in how we
25       develop an analysis of where the gaps are.
 
    58
 1   MISS WEEKES:  Give me two practical examples of how you want
 2       to take forward your recommendation that managers need
 3       to become more aware of issues that affect the way they
 4       manage, black and white staff.
 5   MR LOGAN:  Before I pass on, I will just say what I do.
 6       I have used the 360-degree assessment, so you are
 7       getting assessments from not only your supervisors and
 8       your peers, but also from the rest of your team that you
 9       work with.
10   MISS WEEKES:  What are the criteria for the assessment?
11   MR LOGAN:  The criteria are normally based on your
12       leadership skills, decision-making, communication,
13       various planning and organising.
14   MISS WEEKES:  Have you suggested this to management?
15   MR LOGAN:  Well, it is actually part of the RUNGE leadership
16       course, which has been running for some years.
17   MISS WEEKES:  Are they making assessments of managers so
18       that you can see best practice developing?
19   MR LOGAN:  Well, there is no one that comes back to me and
20       says, "Right, have you done your 360 recently?"  Again,
21       good idea, but who is following it up?  I know that it
22       creates the right environment for people to come back to
23       me and say, "No, I do not agree with this, there is
24       a way of doing this better".  It then gives people that
25       creativity and innovation that needs to be brought into
 
    59
 1       the environment.
 2           There is other tools, do you want to highlight on
 3       that?
 4   MR POWELL:  My role within specialist operations, for
 5       instance, what we have been able to do is to bring in
 6       business tools to help local managers to try and
 7       understand some of the diversity issues, not just in
 8       terms of people management, but in terms of their
 9       policies, their practices, their operational issues.
10           As Leroy mentioned, the diversity excellence model
11       is a framework that allows managers to carry out local
12       assessments of their working practices, the way that
13       they manage individuals, the way they produce their
14       policies and procedures, but alongside that, we also
15       monitor which people are getting training, so that is
16       aggregated, we look at which women officers are getting
17       training, it is broken down by ethnicity, et cetera.
18           We have introduced a psychometric tool which the
19       American military use to understand the probability of
20       issues occurring within the workplace based on
21       difference, so for instance, it is a psychometric tool,
22       and it will look to see how cohesive particular teams
23       are, it will look to see -- it will ask questions to see
24       whether or not -- if you introduce somebody of colour or
25       of a different faith, what would be the likely outcomes
 
    60
 1       with that particular team?
 2           Now this particular tool has been used on 1 million
 3       servicemen and women in the United States, so what we
 4       are trying to say here is there are business tools that
 5       we can bring into the workplace that local managers can
 6       use to understand the diversity environment that they
 7       are actually working within.
 8   MISS WEEKES:  And have you been allowed to do that, and has
 9       it been successful?
10   MR POWELL:  Certainly we have been allowed to do that within
11       specialist operations, and we have put that forward to
12       the diversity directorate which Commander Steve Allen
13       heads up, and we are awaiting, really, a decision as to
14       whether or not it will become corporate tools.
15   MISS WEEKES:  Okay.  One of the issues -- I wanted to deal
16       with those general points, because I appreciate your
17       organisation is not just about race, you obviously are
18       including all the other wider issues of policing.
19           But if I can deal with an aspect of resolution of
20       disputes that might include a race issue, you very
21       kindly in your submissions sent us some examples, and of
22       course the identity of individuals is not relevant, and
23       they will not be used, but there was an example that
24       struck me as being something that you could perhaps help
25       us with.
 
    61
 1           Just for the benefit of the public, very briefly,
 2       this particular case study involved a group of officers
 3       in a briefing session being asked to wear a particular
 4       item of clothing, and this officer at that particular
 5       point in time did not have the item of clothing.
 6           I do not know whether it is your view that if
 7       I identify the item of clothing it would disclose the
 8       officer's name?  It would not, thank you.  Well, I think
 9       it does help to show the public how this was resolved.
10           The order was long-sleeved shirts; an officer wore
11       short-sleeved.  But he was able, before going out on
12       operational duties, to wear and obtain a long-sleeved
13       shirt.  Whilst on operational duties, he realised that
14       some of his colleagues were not wearing ties; that was
15       another requirement of dress.  One or two officers
16       smoked whilst on operational duties.
17           Back at the debrief, he received what you call
18       a 162, which is obviously a complaint about his
19       disobedience of an order, or rather the fact that he did
20       not turn up at the original briefing with the correct
21       length shirt.
22           Because no one else had received any comments about
23       the non-wearing of ties, and because two days later, at
24       another incident, other officers disobeyed a dressing
25       order, he took the view that the service of the 162 upon
 
    62
 1       him by the officer in charge of that group was marred
 2       with race discrimination, and he reported it to your
 3       association, or rather your association was told about
 4       his dilemma.
 5           A Fairness at Work advisor was got on board, with
 6       one of your representatives, and of course the officer
 7       concerned; an initial discussion took place.  This would
 8       have been the time to have an early resolution of that
 9       particular incident.  It was not in fact resolved there
10       and then, because everybody in that group agreed,
11       because it contained an issue of race discrimination, it
12       had to go up to the borough commander.
13           Now can I just stop there?  First of all, where is
14       the rule or statute that says you cannot informally deal
15       with an issue that contains race?  Where is it in the
16       statute?
17   MR LOGAN:  It does not exist.
18   MISS WEEKES:  So why did everybody in that group agree that
19       they could not resolve it, and it had to go up to the
20       borough commander?
21   MR LOGAN:  Before I pass on to Alfred, I think that example
22       is a very important one, because you would be surprised
23       how that happens every day, and a lot of people do not
24       hear about them, but the important thing is that again,
25       you get everyone circling around with entrenched views,
 
    63
 1       and there is a lack of objectivity being brought in to
 2       what are the real issues, and how can this be dealt with
 3       quickly to prevent further damage for the organisation.
 4   MISS WEEKES:  Just a moment: how would you have resolved
 5       that within one hour?  It could have been resolved in a
 6       hour, could it not?
 7   MR LOGAN:  Oh yes.
 8   MISS WEEKES:  How would you have resolved it?
 9   MR JOHN:  I know this case quite well.  The moment that
10       a 162 is issued, it is not a Fairness at Work issue, it
11       can only be resolved by the borough commander, and that
12       is why in that particular case it was not appropriate to
13       follow the Fairness at Work.  It was actually resolved
14       informally, when in fact the decision was reversed, and
15       the person that tried to actually issue the 162 was more
16       liable for the 162 than anyone else, and he was issued
17       that.
18           That was actually resolved very quickly, in fact it
19       did not go to the borough commander in the end, it went
20       just below him, but I would have been happy, as any
21       other Fairness at Work advisor would have been happy to
22       input and resolve that informally, but from the moment
23       that a 162 is issued, our hands are tied.
24   MISS WEEKES:  Well, why on earth does it have to be so?
25   MR JOHN:  I quite agree.  One would actually argue in that
 
    64
 1       particular case why in fact it actually got to a stage
 2       that way, but like I said, we had to deal with it in a
 3       particular way.  If we did go by the letter of the law,
 4       it would be a three or four month investigation; as it
 5       turned out, it was resolved by the second meeting, which
 6       was not too bad, according to that, but it was a set of
 7       circumstances -- I quite agree, mediation is much
 8       better.  Informal chat, I believe, is essential to
 9       getting some of these problems resolved, but from the
10       moment that certain processes are engaged, there are
11       certain things that get blocked off.
12   MR LOGAN:  I think it is down to interpretation as well.
13       Certain people will interpret it in a certain focused
14       way, and they are not open to suggestions.  They may
15       have had the suggestion, but the formality kicks in,
16       even though it could have been dealt with in other ways.
17       So they have actually cut off their options.  And it
18       comes to a point of all these rules and regulations are
19       there, but it is down to the individual to interpret
20       them.
21   MISS WEEKES:  Forgive me, who is going to interpret it?
22       Here there was a representative from your organisation
23       who agreed, "Cannot do anything, it is out of our
24       hands", everyone agreed.  Now if we are going to make
25       some sensible recommendations, what is it you would want
 
    65
 1       us to do so that what I personally consider is an
 2       unfortunate case not to have been resolved within 30
 3       minutes, let alone an hour, what is the recommendation?
 4       How can we kick-start much more informal resolution of
 5       things that -- this may have ended up as an employment
 6       tribunal case, might it not?  Now what is the practical
 7       recommendation?
 8   MR JOHN:  As we said all along, it is the intervention, it
 9       is the appropriate mediation.  In that particular case,
10       the actual person that was served with the 162 never
11       knew anything about it until after it had been served;
12       in other words, he was not spoken to about the entire
13       incident until he saw the 162.  That is where it went
14       wrong.
15           Why discussion did not take place -- and that is why
16       it was reversed.  Why discussion did not take place is
17       actually quite common in the service, that a process is
18       engaged before anyone has a chance to speak about it,
19       and that was a prime example.
20   MISS WEEKES:  Well, as a representative group of some
21       recognition within the Met, what would you say to your
22       membership, your representatives who were asked to turn
23       up to deal with these issues; what would be your
24       guideline to them about informal resolution?  Because no
25       doubt another member of the Black Police Association
 
    66
 1       might say, "I have got another 162, I am not going to
 2       resolve it".  So what is the way forward?
 3   MR JOHN:  I still maintain that in actual fact, we still
 4       have to discuss -- there is still a huge potential to
 5       resolve most cases by and through informal discussion,
 6       before those battle lines have been drawn up.  But
 7       unless an atmosphere for reconciliation has been
 8       created, that will be very difficult.
 9           Thus I said earlier that for every one person that
10       comes forward, you will have ten others that did not
11       feel comfortable enough to do that.  In some of our
12       submissions, we have actually demonstrated the price
13       that people pay to even come forward, and unless that
14       atmosphere for reconciliation is there, then basically
15       it is almost as if the formal procedure is in fact the
16       foremost; it should never be that.  That is the culture.
17   MISS WEEKES:  What do you want to create this atmosphere,
18       the correct circumstances, so people begin to informally
19       resolve things?
20   MR LOGAN:  I think we need to start looking at some
21       specialist personnel within the diversity directorate,
22       having a practical lead and going on to boroughs to
23       assist in, you know, these areas of concern.  It needs
24       boroughs to be understanding that they do not
25       necessarily have all the skills to deal with it, so if
 
    67
 1       they have some concerns on some issues, there are
 2       channels in which they can go straight to the diversity
 3       directorate and say, "Right, we have an issue", even if
 4       it is just telephone consultation or through e-mails,
 5       whatever, and get those specialists within the
 6       directorate or elsewhere to say, "Listen, we have looked 
 7       at the merits of this and it needs you to review some of
 8       your actions".
 9           So we are starting to see that with boroughs, they
10       are calling us on the BPA to say, "Listen, we have
11       an issue and we would like you to look at it", and we
12       are welcome to do that.  We have been able to influence
13       a fair number of Fairness at Work issues that would have
14       gone a totally different direction, and we will give our
15       advice, but, you know, if our clients say to us,
16       "Really, I have no alternative but to go down the road
17       of an ET", then our hands are tied, but we will give
18       that advice where it can, but I really think there is
19       a need for the DCC4 directorate to look at this very
20       closely.
21   MR JOHN:  If I may just add to this, the point Leroy makes
22       about specialist staff is very important.  Dealing with
23       conflict is, especially when it starts to get complex,
24       a specialist task, but I must emphasise -- we have had
25       evidence from other people, I mentioned yesterday, there
 
    68
 1       was Esme Crowther; we have staff like Esme Crowther with
 2       an extensive amount of knowledge that, quite frankly,
 3       are not utilised enough.  They are able to give advice;
 4       they cannot enforce.
 5   MISS WEEKES:  She would like a bigger budget, she would like
 6       more people, she has told us.
 7   MR JOHN:  And I would have to agree, we do have specialists,
 8       we do have skilled people, but when the case has become
 9       complex, their power is reduced to advice, and they
10       themselves would tell you that the times that they have
11       gone against advice has almost certainly resulted in an
12       ET, and that is not the way to carry on.
13           We should have those key people.  We speak in the
14       Met about the right people doing the right jobs.  Well,
15       here we have the right people and they are doing the
16       right jobs, but they have no teeth, and in certain
17       circumstances, they need to be in a position to turn
18       round and say, "Well, I appreciate your position on
19       this, but I am afraid you are wrong, this is the way
20       that you will have to do it".  That does not take place.
21           And I feel that it is a waste to have such
22       a resource sitting there that can only be used
23       superficially.
24   MISS WEEKES:  You rate Esme Crowther's department?  You
25       would like to see her do more?
 
    69
 1   MR JOHN:  Certainly, I think we have some very skilled
 2       people inside there, and I believe that we should be
 3       using those people more than we are.
 4   MISS WEEKES:  It is very helpful to know that.
 5   MR LOGAN:  What I would add, however, we do not agree with
 6       where it is actually sitting at the moment.  We actually
 7       believe that department, when it moved from HR to the
 8       directorate for professional standards, we were really
 9       concerned about how that relocation would change the
10       whole -- it was like target hardening, it hardened the
11       whole approach towards employment tribunals.
12           One thing I just want to clarify, obviously the 162
13       process is for police officers, but, you know, we are
14       still seeing a lot of issues with police staff of this
15       inflexibility.
16           Again, I am not trying to be downcrying police
17       staff, but there is still a culture within a culture in
18       that setting, and police staff will absorb more than
19       most police officers will, and these things are still
20       going on.  We really need to be understanding of those
21       differences for sworn and unsworn officers.
22   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Well, I know you have read these
23       transcripts as they come out, so you will know the
24       evidence that has been given about the debate between
25       officers and staff, and the difference between the terms
 
    70
 1       of contract.  Do you want to comment upon that now?
 2   MR LOGAN:  I mean, I am not a specialist like the Federation
 3       on a lot of these complexities, but I think there needs
 4       to be a harmonising between sworn and unsworn officers
 5       for sure, in terms of employment law.  I think there
 6       needs to be a cultural shift in how we appreciate police
 7       staff specialists, because unfortunately, there is still
 8       the perception that specialist police staff are not
 9       being listened to or acknowledged as fully as they
10       should, because there is that cultural divide to some
11       extent still existing, and sometimes police staff do not
12       even put forward their suggestions, because they do not
13       want the possibility of them being seen as being
14       troublemakers, even though putting forward that
15       suggestion would assist the process, and we have seen
16       that through our case studies, where people are finding,
17       "Well, it is best not to say anything, because I do not
18       want to have a difficult life", and I can understand
19       that.
20   MR POWELL:  I was just going to add to the point that Leroy
21       made: one of the special and unique factors about the
22       Black Police Association is that it is made up of all
23       staff, whether police officers and police staff.  The
24       points that Leroy has mentioned about putting forward
25       ideas or having their voices heard, the BPA provides
 
    71
 1       that mechanism, so that all staff, black staff, can have
 2       their voices heard, can have their creative ideas heard,
 3       and can be put forward at a policy board, and can be
 4       considered.
 5   MISS WEEKES:  Can I move to the second of my topics, and it
 6       falls out of the first, really?  It is the culture.
 7       Recommendations at the best of times often sit on
 8       a shelf and gather dust, and they are simply words, like
 9       lots of the policy documents which I know you live with.
10           It is clearly not easy for any public inquiry to
11       make recommendations about how you change people's
12       mindsets, attitudes and culture, and I know this is
13       a topic that we could all debate until 10.00 tonight;
14       I doubt you would have an audience.  But if you had to
15       tell me two things -- I am going to make you tell me two
16       things that you want us to consider which are high on
17       your priorities, two things that will assist in the
18       change of mindset, attitude, culture.
19           I have in mind -- again I am dealing with management
20       of staff; we have been told managers actually do not
21       like to take on board difficulties with staff, because
22       if it goes pear-shaped, and it goes against them, it
23       goes on their record, and when they come up for
24       promotion, it does not look very good.
25           The same thing happens with the race issue, it does
 
    72
 1       not look very good, so that is why they hand it up the
 2       road.  It may be the same thing when they deal with
 3       women, I know not, but it is all to do with fear, as
 4       I understand it.  So I have on board that quick summary
 5       of the evidence I have read, and it is only quick, it is
 6       quite a complex topic, but what are your two issues, two
 7       aspects of the matter that you want us to keep on board?
 8   MR LOGAN:  I will touch on one, and then I will pass on to
 9       Bevan.  What I really think, in terms of the culture of
10       the organisation, is making a mistake, a genuine
11       mistake, is not necessarily a sense of failure.  It is
12       actually a part of learning.  As I said before, the
13       organisation perpetuates itself on success, getting it
14       right first time, with the right people at the right
15       time, great, fabulous, but do not try and hide areas
16       where you get it wrong.
17           That is what we have to try and develop in the
18       organisation; take away that climate of fear that if you
19       get something wrong, you are not going to be chastised
20       or seen to be less able than your peers, and so, you
21       know, you are not going to try and hide it away from
22       that specialist selection form because you do not want
23       it to be seen as doing something short of the mark, or
24       you want to go for promotion.
25           Because that hides so many -- you know, that is
 
    73
 1       where the bodies are buried, in people hiding things,
 2       unfortunately.  Until we develop that climate where even
 3       if you make a genuine mistake, and people actually
 4       acknowledge that, and the steps you have taken to try
 5       and prevent that, it is not seen as a failing; I think
 6       that is a genuine step.
 7           Now that again is the hearts and minds of people's
 8       attitudes towards each other, and I truly believe that
 9       is one of the things we could start doing.
10   MISS WEEKES:  How do you make or how do you convince
11       a majority male management group that they should be
12       less hard, less macho, less male and say, "Well, sorry,
13       I did get that bit wrong, and I take on board your views
14       about improvements for the future"; how on earth does
15       a recommendation get to that?
16   MR LOGAN:  One of the things that we have submitted in our
17       paper is around affirmative action; start changing the
18       scenery.  That changes cultures, because we want to get
19       away from the white male Anglo-Saxon boardroom, and
20       having a more diverse boardroom, and start to see that
21       permeate right throughout the organisation.
22           That is why we truly believe there needs to be
23       a reflection not only of the community at the lower
24       ranks but also throughout the ranks of police officers
25       and police staff, and that is why we truly believe there
 
    74
 1       is a debate to be had around affirmative action as it
 2       has been implemented in the police service in Northern
 3       Ireland since the Patten Report.  We know it is
 4       government policy, it could be introduced here, and
 5       managed in a way that it is not seen as quotas, because
 6       we are not talking about quotas.
 7           Do you want to add to that?
 8   MR POWELL:  My second point was Leroy's point, which is
 9       around affirmative action; we need a critical mass of
10       people from various ethnicities reflecting London within
11       the organisation.
12           The reason we say we need that critical mass is the
13       issue around assimilation.  We believe that if you
14       trickle feed, as we are currently doing, then the
15       difference that those people would bring into the
16       organisation is, in a sense, suppressed by the majority
17       culture, so we would argue -- and we have recommended --
18       Leroy said we do not use the term quotas, but we are
19       asking for a 50/50 recruitment policy, as in Northern
20       Ireland.
21   MISS WEEKES:  Well, a white manager who reads this
22       transcript might say, "Oh right, I see, the Metropolitan
23       Black Police Association want us just to pack this force
24       with some more black people", and where is the merit?
25   MR LOGAN:  I think it is the people we are attracting.
 
    75
 1       Unfortunately, we are not getting the people that can
 2       really add value to this organisation.  I think we have
 3       some incredible people, who are willing to -- you know,
 4       from black and minority groups, really going through
 5       some real difficulties, but still sticking in there and
 6       trying to move this organisation on, and the
 7       organisation is responding to some extent, but we are
 8       not getting young people who really could see the police
 9       service as an employer of choice.  We are not getting
10       those calibre, especially from black and minority
11       groups.
12           We work with young people through our leadership
13       programmes over the last four years, and they are
14       striving for excellence, they are very empowered young
15       people, but they do not see the police service for them,
16       because they hear about how staff are developed and
17       dealt with internally, and, of course, they receive
18       a certain amount of service which affects their
19       perceptions about the organisation.
20           When you start to see some significant changes in
21       the make-up of the organisation, that is a significant
22       impact, especially on people trying to decide, where is
23       their career path.
24           For example, when Colin Powell was head of NATO
25       forces, American recruitment of black African-Americans
 
    76
 1       improved by 30 per cent.  So role models are a very
 2       significant impact on changing the scenery of --
 3   MISS WEEKES:  Do we have the details of your suggestions on
 4       affirmative actions within your submission -- the
 5       detail, is it in the submission?
 6   MR LOGAN:  In terms of practical implication?  No, we have
 7       not.
 8   MISS WEEKES:  I would very much like that.  I appreciate it
 9       is another piece of homework, but rest assured, we will
10       be here for a little longer.
11           Can I, if I may, move on to my last topic, which is
12       the gender agenda?  I have noticed, and it is
13       an impressive line-up, but it is four men; where are the
14       women who speak on behalf of your organisation?  Well,
15       the hands are up, but they are not at the table, they
16       are in the audience.  Why are they not at the table with
17       you?
18   MR LOGAN:  A very good and important point, and I am not
19       going to make excuses for not having women here at the
20       table.  However, I will clarify certain situations in
21       terms of how we came through the process of developing
22       our submission.  We had very short notice in having to
23       put some essential issues within a short space of time,
24       and this is the subgroup that drew up the submission.
25           And it is a very daunting task; I must admit,
 
    77
 1       I would like to see the sisters in the organisation
 2       being part of that process right from the very
 3       beginning.  As I said, we have a women's forum that has
 4       been running for some time, and they are doing some
 5       excellent work.
 6   MISS WEEKES:  Well, did you invite women to present with you
 7       this afternoon?
 8   MR LOGAN:  I think it was like everything, we needed to --
 9       we as an executive discussed the whole process, and we
10       have women on the executive, and we said, well, who are
11       the people best placed to put forward our ideas?
12           I am not saying it is a perfect process, but it is
13       the process that we as an executive did take forward.
14   MISS WEEKES:  But you will see the importance as to why
15       I ask the question.
16   MR LOGAN:  Absolutely, yes.
17   MISS WEEKES:  When you allow women to sit in positions of
18       high profile, and they sit at an important public
19       inquiry, you are sending a message, which means you too
20       believe in diversity.
21   MR REID:  It is inexcusable, it is as simple as that.
22   MISS WEEKES:  Thank you.  I am very grateful for that, can
23       I thank you for that frank answer.
24           Can I in any event deal with the wider issues in
25       relation to black women?  Now I want to just bring up
 
    78
 1       two pieces of work, and the first is Lord Ouseley, some
 2       time ago, in 2000, wrote a report where he considered
 3       the issues of diversity in the Met.  Page 13 -- if we
 4       can just find the right reference.  Unfortunately,
 5       I have given our excellent document finder the wrong
 6       reference.  I actually have it, I will read it to you:
 7           "Sex discrimination is another issue which requires
 8       much more investment.  There are too few women officers
 9       in senior positions, and some very talented women staff
10       have left the organisation during the period of this
11       review, because they believe they have not been
12       sufficiently valued and recognised by their employers.
13       The Metropolitan Police Service cannot afford to lose
14       any talented staff and considerable attention should be
15       given to the gender prejudice and women's
16       under-representation in senior positions."
17           There is one other reference, and it is your own
18       reference, so although I have asked you the question
19       about the non-presentation, not, I have to say, in your
20       main submission did the issue of gender come up, but in
21       the documents that you sent us, at your document
22       page 13/123, there was one reference only to women in
23       the whole of your documents:
24           "Ethnic minority women face triple discrimination on
25       the basis of being police staff, ethnic minorities and
 
    79
 1       female."
 2           Now it is quite clear that the majority of women
 3       appear in the police staff area of policing; that is
 4       correct, because I know you are on top of the
 5       statistics.  And in any event, when I looked at the last
 6       statistics -- this is recent, I know they have been
 7       updated since February 2004, but in March 2003, within
 8       the ranks, there are 1,266 black visible ethnic males to
 9       308 females from ethnic minorities.
10           The most senior black woman in the police force is
11       a superintendent, of which there is one; there is one
12       chief inspector, three inspectors, eight sergeants, 295
13       constables.  They are clearly the least represented
14       within the officer ranks, but the most represented
15       within the staff ranks.
16           What is your organisation doing to promote and
17       assist black women to achieve what clearly must be
18       a huge amount of talent and potential?
19   MR LOGAN:  Well as I said before, we have a women's forum
20       that is doing some excellent work, especially when it
21       comes to police staff women, they do development
22       workshops, especially on the catering staff, because
23       some of them do not even have access to the e-mail
24       system, and we have gone further than anticipated in the
25       early instance of the women's forum developing in career
 
    80
 1       advice; we have found that there has been various
 2       workshops through our women's forum on that count.
 3           We have also highlighted the issue of the gender
 4       imbalance in our annual reports, we have made it clear
 5       that there needs to be an emphasis for the plight of
 6       black female staff, and black female police officers,
 7       because in fact, we have actually got up-to-date figures
 8       to the end of March here.
 9   MISS WEEKES:  They are not very much different, are they?
10   MR LOGAN:  No, other than the most senior police officer is
11       a chief superintendent now.
12   MISS WEEKES:  Chief superintendent, I am grateful for that.
13       What is it that women tell you they would like to see as
14       improvements?  What are black women saying they would
15       like to see to improve their positions?
16   MR LOGAN:  I mean, one of the things that I just needed to
17       add, the National Black Police Association has worked
18       very hard on the personal leadership programme, which
19       has been specific to assist staff from black and
20       minority groups, and focus on female members of staff,
21       so that is another process which we have been working
22       with throughout the organisation.
23           But in terms of what our women colleagues are
24       actually saying, there needs to be a real drive to
25       promote gender issues in a more strategic way, and that
 
    81
 1       is why our members, male and female, have actually
 2       worked in the gender agenda that has been promoted by
 3       DOIT, but we have realised we have to do a lot of the
 4       development ourselves.
 5           I think an important point, before I pass on to
 6       Gareth, is unfortunately, with all of these double
 7       jeopardies, triple jeopardies, there is people suffering
 8       from real burden, and they suffer from burn-out, and
 9       there is a reluctance in some cases -- not all, but in
10       some cases -- to come forward, because they find that
11       the organisation is not really understanding and not
12       responding.
13           Through our support programmes, we are listening to
14       what our female members are talking about.
15   MISS WEEKES:  Women may be reluctant to come forward, but if
16       you have the ear of the Commissioner, you can talk to
17       him.
18   MR LOGAN:  We do.  We have regular meetings with him,
19       quarterly meetings.  We sit on the diversity board, so
20       these issues are raised at regular -- we also sit on the
21       diversity forum, which is chaired by Commander Allen, so
22       these issues are raised.
23   MISS WEEKES:  Do you think women are reluctant to come to
24       talk to us?
25   MR LOGAN:  To us as the panel?
 
    82
 1   MISS WEEKES:  The panel, yes.
 2   MR LOGAN:  I do not think so.  I would like to think that
 3       they would be more than happy, just like the association
 4       of women officers.
 5   MISS WEEKES:  We have only had one association.
 6   MR LOGAN:  Female association?
 7   MISS WEEKES:  Yes.
 8   MR LOGAN:  I cannot answer for them.  I think Gareth wants
 9       to have an input. 
10   MR REID:  I just want to comment on what black female
11       colleagues are telling us.  What clearly comes across,
12       particularly within support cases, is that there is
13       a general feeling of inequity and unfairness, and we
14       have already touched on -- but I want to expand on it
15       a bit more, on this triple bind.
16           There is this double bind on a race aspect, and
17       a bind on the gender aspect; on the gender aspect, we
18       have black women being perceived by our institution in a
19       certain way, and there are perceptions of perhaps
20       unreliability, there are perceptions perhaps of not
21       being available due to childcare issues.
22           So this erodes their value base on an operational
23       level, whether they are police staff or police officers,
24       and these perceptions persist; another issue would be
25       around that of specifically to do with their
 
    83
 1       interactions as lower ranking officers or administrator
 2       assistants with their white supervisors, white female
 3       supervisors, and there is a particular dynamic there, in
 4       that our sisters are experiencing a particular problem
 5       in relation to breaking through glass ceilings or glass
 6       desks and progressing.  They are not getting the
 7       encouragement and support; that in itself warrants its
 8       own investigation.
 9           But generally speaking, the complaint is that the
10       practices, the processes, the structures that we have
11       inhibit the development of our black female staff.
12   MISS WEEKES:  What is your action plan to deal with that?
13   MR LOGAN:  Well, we have a three-year action plan which does
14       reflect the issues that Gareth has raised.  I think it
15       is around resilience as well: unfortunately, we do not
16       have a lot of resources at our disposal to really keep
17       on drawing on our own resources; we are very limited in
18       that.
19           But what we try and do is in everything that we
20       focus on -- because when we say racial equality, it is
21       not just taking out the gender machine.  So everything
22       that we are forcing in the organisation tries its best
23       to make sure that there is a female input; in our action
24       plan, it is around greater communication of what we are
25       trying to do with the organisation, promoting best
 
    84
 1       value, because especially when we see boroughs and
 2       departments really doing some excellent work when it
 3       comes to the gender agenda, we see what they are doing
 4       and we try and get it communicated to other parts of the
 5       organisation.
 6           I think Bevan, you had a point to raise?
 7   MR POWELL:  I think one of the major things we need to look
 8       at is positive action around black women.  Within the
 9       organisation, we have a competency framework which
10       describes the types of skills and behaviours that you
11       need to perform a particular task, but also it describes
12       what is needed to progress within that particular
13       profession.  I think in order to build confidence and to
14       ensure that black women are moving through ranks and
15       grades, we need to have a positive action programme that
16       analyses their particular needs.  That would be the
17       starting point, to actually start to analyse individual
18       needs, and I think we have to remember that when it
19       comes to police staff, there are several different
20       professions, so you might be an HR professional, you
21       could be a catering professional, et cetera, so that
22       work needs to take place at a local level, so not
23       a generic programme, but something that looks
24       specifically at the needs within that particular
25       environment.
 
    85
 1   MR LOGAN:  I think that the affirmative action piece that we
 2       have put forward, and the extra work that we have been
 3       asked to do, will focus on those areas.
 4   MISS WEEKES:  Thank you very much.  I am sorry I have taken
 5       a while, but I know you understand they were quite
 6       important topics.
 7   MR LOGAN:  We are not going anywhere.
 8             Further questions by SIR WILLIAM MORRIS
 9   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Just before we move on, could you just
10       clarify for me -- I was not quite clear, I thought
11       I heard two separate answers.  Is the 162 a mandatory
12       requirement going up to commander at borough, or is it
13       just a policy within the context of the Commissioner's
14       office?  What is it?
15   MR LOGAN:  It is part of the formal discipline procedure.
16   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Is it a Regulation 9 notice?
17   MR LOGAN:  Yes.
18   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  It is statutory.
19   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  It is statutory, okay, that is fine.
20   MR LOGAN:  It is basically putting them on attention that
21       there is an allegation made.
22   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  I just wanted it clarified, because
23       I was getting two separate messages as to what it was.
24       And just another point: is membership of your
25       organisation open to anyone who are not police officers?
 
    86
 1   MR LOGAN:  Yes, we are police officers and police staff.
 2   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Yes, sorry, not employed by the
 3       Metropolitan Police Service.
 4   MR LOGAN:  Our criteria for membership has expanded
 5       somewhat, but it does include the wider police family,
 6       as we know with PCSOs, special constables and so forth,
 7       and also on the police staff, it includes outsourced
 8       members of staff, so those who have outsourced to
 9       different contractors.
10   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Employed by --
11   MR LOGAN:  Yes.  We also include retired members as well,
12       and quite recently, in our associate membership, we do
13       include members of staff who do not come under our
14       definition of black, so we are widening that.
15   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  What does the associate members -- how
16       do they relate or interact with the organisation, the
17       association members?
18   MR LOGAN:  Well, I mean, the big difference is for our full
19       membership, they will get the support process, whereas
20       our associate membership will not get that.
21   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Let me come back to why we are here: to
22       get evidence and to make some recommendations, and it is
23       very important that we know this scope of the
24       organisation in terms of its membership base; no point,
25       we say, in something which does not address the audience
 
    87
 1       for which it is intended.  So what I am trying to find
 2       out is whether the organisation has members or is open
 3       to members outside the Metropolitan Police Service
 4       family; yes, of course, I understand retired members,
 5       I do understand outsourcing and people which fall into
 6       those categories.
 7           What I want to find out is if somebody worked for
 8       another organisation, could they join your organisation?
 9   MR LOGAN:  They could be friends of BPA, and that is in our
10       constitution, which is in our piece, sir.
11   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Right, okay.  You could not just give
12       us a list of the categories of members, sir?
13   MR LOGAN:  It is actually in our constitution, but we are
14       more than happy to add to our list of work.
15   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Right, I am moving straight on to
16       Sir Anthony Burden's line of questions.
17                 Questions by SIR ANTHONY BURDEN
18   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Can I just clarify one thing, please?
19       We are looking at this model of awareness, following on
20       from your comments about training, and I entirely agree
21       with what you are saying.  But I just want to sort of
22       build this model of awareness in my own mind.  Just if
23       I can clarify, Mr Powell's role in specialist
24       operations, is that the diversity lead that you refer to
25       in your submission?
 
    88
 1   MR POWELL:  That is correct.
 2   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  So you would put the model that you
 3       have in special operations directorate forward as a best
 4       practice model, basically?
 5   MR POWELL:  I have already done that.
 6   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  And you would recommend that there
 7       would somebody like you, Bevan, in each directorate, in
 8       each OCU, that that would have that lead.
 9   MR POWELL:  Somebody like me to build capacity within the
10       rest of staff, so to assist local managers, but at the
11       same time building their capacity to carry out the role
12       that I do on a day-to-day basis, operationally.
13   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  You obviously have a good strong
14       relationship with the head of your directorate.
15   MR POWELL:  Mr Vaness, yes.
16   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  It is a two-way partnership, so it is
17       a relationship, obviously.  Do you feel that such
18       an initiative would be well received in other
19       directorates and OCUs where perhaps, you know -- this is
20       special operations' idea; can it migrate elsewhere?
21   MR POWELL:  Absolutely.  The diversity excellence model is
22       not a model that we developed within specialist
23       operations.
24   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  No, but you are the first directorate
25       to take this particular approach to implementing it.
 
    89
 1   MR LOGAN:  I have actually adopted it in the Westminster
 2       borough to try and prove the concept.  We implemented
 3       the diversity excellence model about two years ago, and
 4       again, it was to assist the central diversity action
 5       plan that came on after "protect and respect", and in
 6       fusing the two, we actually came up with an improvement
 7       strategy which was helping around communication and
 8       making sure that people's development reflected the
 9       borough priorities, so we have actually shown that it
10       can work, not only at borough, but also in another
11       specialist department, DOI; another member of the BPA
12       executive, Keith Smith, has actually utilised that.
13           So by a desire to see an assessment tool in a
14       practical arena, three members of the executive have
15       actually implemented the diversity excellence model in
16       our various fields of work.
17   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Is it now being formally evaluated
18       before it goes to management board, or has it not got
19       that far?
20   MR LOGAN:  We have shown evaluation through -- we do some
21       benchmarking, and we have put that to the DOIT team, and
22       it is really for them to make a decision.
23   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  This is the DOIT team at the moment?
24   MR LOGAN:  Yes, I mean, we have put various evaluations of
25       what we have done on the borough, as well as what has
 
    90
 1       happened in specialist operations, so it is for them to
 2       make a decision, really.
 3   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  But it could be a very powerful model,
 4       you think, to promote awareness.
 5   MR LOGAN:  If you get the buy-in, sure.
 6   MR POWELL:  But it is also a way of measuring, because at
 7       the moment, there is not an effective measuring tool
 8       within the organisation to measure progress within the
 9       diversity environment.
10   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  I mean, we need to look at it more
11       closely; if we go to the DOIT team, will we get access
12       to the paperwork supporting it?
13   MR LOGAN:  Well, you can get paperwork from us.
14   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  But the chairman has given you about
15       three days' work!
16   MR LOGAN:  But this is easily accessible --
17   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Then would you please?
18   MR LOGAN:  Yes, not a problem.
19   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Hendon; help us, if you will, we have
20       heard conflicting views now, and fairly powerful
21       evidence that suggested that the totally unacceptable
22       wastage rate of black and minority ethnic recruits at
23       Hendon was due in part to behaviour, culture, evidence
24       of some racism, sexism, bullying, but not confirmed by
25       all witnesses that have come before us.
 
    91
 1           Could I ask your view as an association, please?
 2   MR LOGAN:  Well, I will start, because I know we have done
 3       an extensive amount of work in Hendon for some years,
 4       and we have submitted significant pieces of work to
 5       confirm what is going on, but I had it from first
 6       instance as an intake manager, and I saw a lot of areas
 7       where there could have been problems for Hendon, and
 8       I intervened, and personally put myself out on a regular
 9       basis to try and assist not only the recruits but also
10       members of staff, regardless of their background and
11       culture.
12           It also was on a basis of our leadership programme
13       that we have been running in Westminster, and part of
14       that is a six-day residential at Hendon that we have
15       been running since 2001.
16           I must admit, we saw a hardened approach in
17       embracing ourselves as their colleagues, but also on how
18       young people from the community were being embraced.
19           And, of course, the Secret Policeman did touch on
20       some issues that showed that could happen at any time,
21       and I have listened to the submissions that have been
22       made, but a recent inspection, internal inspection of
23       Hendon has shown the lack of systems to really detect
24       how the -- the resignation rates, and really see how
25       they capture these people before they leave.
 
    92
 1           It was around management information systems, and
 2       the lack of those processes and practices, which were
 3       very touch sensitive, not only in the staff rooms, but
 4       also within the recruits arena, because as members of
 5       staff, we are not always there with them, but we need to
 6       be a lot more proactive on getting into where the
 7       recruits work amongst themselves, and where a lot of
 8       issues are not flagged up with us as members of staff.
 9           So that recent thematic that was done, I think
10       November last year, is a good benchmark to show where
11       our concerns are, but I know Alfred wants to step in.
12   MR JOHN:  As Leroy says, we have done a lot of work to do
13       with Hendon, and as has been previously stated, Hendon
14       is a premier police training facility, not just regarded
15       in this country but all over the world, but as an
16       organisation, I believe that we treat this with
17       breathtaking flippancy.
18           One of our mottos has been choosing the right people
19       to do the right jobs; well, I think that leadership at
20       Hendon is vital.  It is that important.  If I wanted to
21       go to Hendon, if I wanted to work there, I would wait
22       for a post to be advertised and go through the selection
23       process to ensure that I in fact was the best person for
24       the job.  But that does not happen at the leadership
25       level -- and this in fact is not a criticism to the
 
    93
 1       leaders, either past or present, but it is interesting
 2       that for a post that is so important, that in actual
 3       fact, the leader at Hendon does not have to go through
 4       a selection process.  That has to be very significant,
 5       and that does not put the view in which -- or the esteem
 6       in which the organisation gives to Hendon in
 7       perspective, to how important it really is to us.
 8           And I think it really starts right at the top.
 9       Secondly --
10   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  How do you get there?
11   MR JOHN:  We have the processes there.  We have a selection
12       process, and simply because a particular person is
13       available does not mean they are the right person for
14       that job.  I could be the only person to go for it, and
15       that still does not mean I am the right person for that
16       job.  But surely, there has to be some criteria.  If it
17       was a situation that we asked, "What was it that made
18       you get that post?", "Well, basically I was available";
19       that is not the way to actually run Hendon.
20           Secondly, to do with training, on a recent visit,
21       Dave Mcfarlane from the National BPA and myself went
22       down there at the back end of last year.  The training
23       programme at Hendon is also -- it is a flat training
24       programme.  Bearing in mind that 75 per cent of the
25       recruits do not actually come from London, that is
 
    94
 1       a very significant dynamic to introduce; policing
 2       a cosmopolitan area like London and the diversity
 3       implications within that are not grasped totally by
 4       people that do not live here.
 5           It is not to say that people who live elsewhere
 6       cannot police London, and I am not suggesting that at
 7       all, but what I am saying is that you will have to start
 8       off on a different level with those people, because
 9       a comment in London that relates to a diversity issue,
10       be it race or gender, has a different impact than for
11       somebody who lives in Devon.
12           I think that because of the sheer numbers that are
13       going into Hendon and the sheer productivity, we need to
14       churn out X number of police officers by X time, and
15       because that is the main focus, I believe that
16       compromises on quality.
17   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  But that might be quality around the
18       academic teaching, and that may involve or may not
19       a fair degree on diversity issues, but forgive me,
20       because this is so important to us as a panel, because
21       Hendon is the gateway to your culture, and if that
22       gateway is not policed in terms of the attitudes and the
23       culture there, we are and you will be condemning the
24       Metropolitan Police Service to another generation of
25       people policing London without the right attitude.
 
    95
 1           So I need to push you on this: are you concerned as
 2       an association about the culture which exists at Hendon
 3       in relation to possible sexist, racist or bullying
 4       attitudes?
 5   MR LOGAN:  Absolutely, and that is one of the reasons why it
 6       was a major plank of our submission to Toby Harris,
 7       calling for an inquiry; it was a major plank of that,
 8       because it has been going on for so many years and
 9       no one has actually got to grips with it, especially
10       with the extremely large intake sizes.  When I was
11       an intake manager there, 125 recruits, and that was
12       difficult; now it is double that, and within that, there
13       is a lot of issues that has been hidden.
14   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  We have a problem: we have not seen or
15       heard or got any evidence.
16   MR LOGAN:  Well, that inspection report does give --
17   MR REID:  I have some, if I may.  I was at Hendon last
18       Friday, in fact.  I was at Hendon last Friday, and I do
19       not know if you are aware, but Acting Commander Grainger
20       arranged a meeting for ethnic minority recruits at
21       Hendon.  I attended, along with some other staff
22       association representatives, and one of the things that
23       came out during that meeting was there is a chap there
24       from London, a black guy from London, and he basically
25       said, you know, he had worked in engineering for most of
 
    96
 1       his life, he joined in his 30s at training school, and
 2       the reason he joined the Met was because he thought -- 
 3       he was under the assumption that going to somewhere like
 4       Hendon, it would somehow capture the vibrancy and the
 5       diversity of London.
 6           And he was shocked, he said it was like entering
 7       a cultural vacuum.  He walked into Hendon, predominantly
 8       male, predominantly white, and he said it was a relief
 9       for him to go home every evening, that the facility was
10       available for him to do that, purely because of that
11       cultural -- he described it as cultural oppression.  And
12       that is the first taste of a recruit within Hendon.
13           So straight away, there is this pressure, and there
14       is this tension for black and ethnic minority recruits
15       when they go through the doors of Hendon, and it is
16       tangible.
17           Another recruit then talked about them expecting
18       also that the atmosphere and the ambience at Hendon --
19       they expected that to be something that reflected
20       mainstream -- or reflected London as it stands at
21       present: according to our census of 2,000, 32 per cent
22       of Londoners are from visible ethnic minority
23       communities, and this is what our recruits expect.  It
24       is not happening.
25   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Are they facing overt racism in any
 
    97
 1       form?  I mean, I understand the trauma that causes,
 2       coming into an environment where you feel this is going
 3       to reflect the diversity of London, and suddenly you are
 4       in a class of 32 other white male individuals, and how
 5       uncomfortable that must be, but are they facing racist
 6       attitudes --
 7   MR REID:  All right, I will give you an example which was
 8       cited.  Three ethnic minority recruits in a syndicate,
 9       they are in their first week.  The class is
10       predominantly white.  They are told -- a class leader is
11       nominated, who is white, and he is directed by the class
12       tutor to collect all the bibliographies of all the
13       recruits on their first week.
14           The class leader, it appears, told the three black
15       recruits to meet him at a certain place in the morning
16       to hand in their bibliography.  The white recruits, it
17       appears, were told to meet at another location.
18           It subsequently turns out that the black recruits
19       were late in handing in their bibliographies, and were
20       subsequently penalised, they had a mark in their book
21       for it, despite the explanation they gave.
22           Now the perception amongst the recruits there was
23       that there was something underhand, so it is difficult
24       to say -- well, you cannot actually say that was
25       a deliberate racist thing, but the implication there for
 
    98
 1       the recruits -- and that is just one example.
 2   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  They were treated differently.  This is
 3       an issue that I know the chairman is determined not to
 4       allow to escape close scrutiny, so there may be a need
 5       for us to come back, I think, at some later stage, if
 6       you do not mind.
 7   MR LOGAN:  Just to flag up, there is some work being done by
 8       the CRE in training establishments, I am sure you are
 9       aware, and obviously the diversity directorate is doing
10       their own inspection work, but I think it relies heavily
11       on how far you want to go on this.  You know, a lot of
12       people have looked -- HMIC have gone at various times,
13       Hendon is great, but there are certain areas for
14       improvement; you know, until you really drill down into
15       what perpetuates that culture, what allows the
16       perpetrators of that culture to exist when it comes to
17       racism and sexism, you are not really going to get to
18       the heart of the matter.
19   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  And the fact is, of course,
20       a disproportionate number of black and ethnic minority
21       recruits are resigning.
22   MR LOGAN:  Yes.
23   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  I will just make the point before we
24       pass on, the first notion of comment about Hendon was
25       made to this Inquiry from that chair by
 
    99
 1       Sir Ronnie Flanagan.  We have been waiting, I suspect is
 2       the best way of putting it, for some evidence that can
 3       be tested, and to date, it is true to say that we have
 4       not received any submissions which we can test.  It has
 5       been anecdotal explanations rather than firm, hard
 6       evidence, that has to be tested, because we cannot sort
 7       of just get evidence in whatever form without exploring
 8       it or testing it.  So I just wanted to make that
 9       particular point.
10   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Can I just -- employment tribunals, you
11       have discussed.  I just want to talk about the
12       department of legal services, please, if I may, and your
13       comments in your submission.  You talk there and
14       recommend that decisions must not be led by legal
15       argument, and that you were concerned over long delays
16       in deciding employment tribunals, and this is not my
17       words, but I think you use something similar, doorstep
18       settlements at the very last minute.
19           Is there anything else that you want to tell us
20       which is of importance in terms of the role of the legal
21       department in employment tribunal cases?
22   MR LOGAN:  Well, I will start, and I know my colleagues want
23       to add, but having been involved in an in-depth inquiry
24       from an external perspective, complaints from members of
25       the public, again, I went through all of the case
 
   100
 1       papers, all of the documentation to do with those
 2       complaints, from one source family over a number of
 3       years, who recently settled with the organisation, and
 4       one of the themes from that is that DLS was not
 5       maintaining a critical distance from the work of DPS and
 6       the PCA, the Police Complaints Authority.
 7           I know they have now finished, and it is a new time,
 8       new season for the IPCC, but we truly believe that there
 9       needs to be a distance in how they have inputs,
10       especially when it comes to gold groups.  I have seen
11       legal advice in gold groups, and a lot of people cling
12       to them, and sometimes can hide behind that advice, and
13       so it gives the perception of them actually guiding the
14       whole process.
15           Especially when there is a strategic reaction to any
16       case; again, the legal services really need to know from
17       themselves when to step back and say, "Right, we have
18       given you the information, now we step back and let you
19       decide".  I do not see that happening very often, if at
20       all.  So in terms of DLS -- and we would like to see
21       more advocates that show diversity.  The advocates we
22       have seen, again, are from the majority culture, so we
23       would like to see a widening of the staff in DLS.
24   MR JOHN:  DLS, we have to remember, from their perspective,
25       a legal perspective, they look at our case on a win/lose
 
   101
 1       basis, because that is their job, but from a moralistic
 2       point of view, as far as the Metropolitan Police is
 3       concerned, if they are involved in gold groups, as Leroy
 4       has mentioned, that critical distance is not maintained,
 5       and you have people that do hide behind them.
 6           I have seen examples of this left, right and centre.
 7       We have an obligation to everyone involved in a case,
 8       albeit the applicant or the respondent, and while a gold
 9       group will look at -- will attempt to look at a case on
10       a basis of finding a resolution, legal services do not
11       have that remit.  They are on a basis of -- a win/lose
12       basis, and I feel that is a very dangerous mix to have
13       in any gold group.
14           Plus, how on earth can you actually maintain any
15       kind of integrity in a decision when part of the gold
16       group are the very people that would go up against you
17       inside an ET?  It does not make any sense.  But that
18       happens regularly, and although I do believe that there
19       has to be some communication that is there, obviously to
20       report back, and hopefully have the situation resolved,
21       the truth is for them to be actually sitting there, I do
22       not believe is actually going to instil anyone's
23       confidence.
24   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Just one final issue on ETs: we have
25       heard from several sources that there are a growing
 
   102
 1       number of white officers going to ET using the cases of
 2       black and minority ethnic officers as comparators; is
 3       that something which you are gaining experience of?
 4   MR LOGAN:  Yes, we have detected that trend.  And our view?
 5   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Please, yes.
 6   MR LOGAN:  Right, again, we have to question their motives.
 7       Is it fending off the main issues, and manipulation?  Is
 8       it them using the race card themselves, which is bandied
 9       against black and minority ethnic personnel?
10           We have not done any sort of analysis of that, but
11       it is a trend that we have picked up, and we would have
12       to see what the test of time proves, but we are watching
13       that case very closely.
14   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Thank you.  Just finally, because you
15       referred to it, but you did not have much opportunity to
16       explain your views, you have put forward in one of your
17       appendices, as you referred to it, the Race Relations
18       (Northern Ireland) Order, which is about affirmative
19       action, I suppose, positive action.  Would you wish us
20       to look at that as a panel closely, and to research it
21       as something -- a strong recommendation that you are
22       putting forward to ensure proportionality within the
23       workforce?
24   MR LOGAN:  Yes, we are willing to assist the secretariat on
25       that, and we know that women-only shortlists in
 
   103
 1       Parliament have some extra learning points for this
 2       plan.
 3   SIR ANTHONY BURDEN:  Okay, thank you.
 4   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Thank you, Tony.
 5           Well, Mr Logan, let me just begin my concluding
 6       remarks by saying thank you very much indeed for your
 7       help.  We have, for the moment, completed our questions
 8       that we wanted to ask of you, but you will recall that
 9       in my opening statement, I said that I would offer you
10       the opportunity, if you so wished, to make a closing
11       comment.  If you do, this is your moment.
12   MR LOGAN:  Well, on behalf of the BPA executive and wider
13       membership, we would like to acknowledge your acts of
14       public service, because I truly believe, in moving this
15       organisation on, it is going to assist all members of
16       the public, and I know other force areas, constabularies
17       around the country will benefit from that, so I think it
18       is historical work, we believe it is historical, and
19       critical.  We will take on the challenge of the extra
20       work, we know that in pointing the finger, three fingers
21       point back at us, and we know our responsibilities and
22       obligations to that end, and we thank you for your time.
23   SIR WILLIAM MORRIS:  Thank you very much.  Just my closing
24       remarks, let me say thank you for your kind words, and
25       as with all our witnesses, it may be necessary that once
 
   104
 1       we have heard others, we may wish to hear from you
 2       again, either in the form of written submission to us,
 3       and we will make that very clear, if that is what our
 4       requirements are, or we may ask you to come back for
 5       another session of oral hearings.
 6           If we do decide to do so, we will obviously do it in
 7       a way which causes the least inconvenience to you and
 8       your organisation, but for the moment, on behalf of my
 9       colleagues, all that I wish to say further is to thank
10       you for your contribution today, thank you for your
11       written submission, and thank you for the contribution
12       that you are making to our Inquiry.  Thanks very much.
13           We stand adjourned now until 10.30 on Monday,
14       5th April.
15   (5.00 pm)
16                (Hearing adjourned until 10.30 am
17                   on Monday, 5th April 2004)
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