Transcript of private session: Ms JJ

The name of this witness has been changed, and her submission redacted, to avoid the identification of the individuals and any third parties.

Tuesday, 20 April 2004
2.05 pm

Sir William Morris: Ms J, welcome and good afternoon to you. Please make yourself as comfortable as you can be made, there is some water there.

We are very informal here, and we like to call people in the style and by the title that they want to be called. How do you like to be addressed?

Ms J: J is fine.

Sir William Morris: Okay, fine, thank you very much. J, first of all, let me say thank you very much indeed for accepting our invitation to attend the Inquiry this afternoon to give evidence. Thank you also for letting us have your written submission which we find extremely useful.

Can I say right at the outset that we do appreciate that a process of this nature can, for some of our witnesses, be a very daunting task, so I thought it would be helpful if I just set out very briefly how we intend to conduct the hearing this afternoon.

But first of all, let me introduce myself and the other members of the panel. My name is Sir Bill Morris, I am the recently-retired General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union. On my right – as you can see, there are two other members, so on my right is Sir Anthony Burden, who recently retired as chief constable of the South Wales Constabulary, after a very long and distinguished career in the police service; on my left is Miss Anesta Weekes QC. Anesta is an eminent barrister and a recorder, and she also sits as a part-time chairperson of the employment tribunals; she was in fact counsel to the Lawrence Inquiry.

As you know, we have been asked by the Metropolitan Police Authority to conduct an independent inquiry into professional standards and employment matters in the Metropolitan Police Service. Our focus is the MPS as an organisation and not the individuals who make up the MPS. Nevertheless, we need to hear from individuals in order to understand how they are affected by the policies, practices, procedures and conventions which govern the way the MPS operates.

Although we are a public inquiry, we have decided to conduct this hearing and some others, where we can hear from individuals, in private. The reason for this is that we are very keen to hear from individuals, like your good self, who have had problems with the way the Met operates, but we also understand that some may feel a little bit reluctant to answer questions if they feel that the MPS is listening-in, so to speak.

I hope, therefore, that you will find the arrangements that we have made for this afternoon helpful, and I trust that you will have the confidence to speak to us very freely, and we look forward to hearing you.

Although we are meeting in private today, as I have just said, we are in fact a public inquiry, and that means that it may be necessary for us to seek further clarification from others about what you say to us in your written submission, and what you will tell us today.

If we do decide to seek any further clarification, we will do so in a means that does not identify your good self; also, let me assure you that we will try to cause you the least possible inconvenience if we have to seek further clarification, and we would not do that without your permission.

The inquiry that we are conducting is inquisitorial, it is not adversarial in any shape or form. We are very keen to enquire into those issues raised by our terms of reference, so that we can make the appropriate recommendations for further good practice, rather than concentrating just on making criticisms.

We have had your written submission, so we have no wish to go back over the details about what has happened. These have been very carefully set out, and we are now clear as a panel about the events.

What we now want to do is to ask you some questions which enable us to draw on your experience to enhance and assist our work. At the end of these introductory remarks, one of my colleagues will lead on our questions to you, and then the remainder of the panel, myself and the other colleague, may have one or two supplementary questions that we want to put to you.

When we have finished with our questions, I will offer you the opportunity to make a brief closing comment or statement.

It is fair that I should just draw to your attention that a transcript is being taken, so that we have a proper record of the evidence that each witness gives to us. We are hoping to publish this transcript, together with your written submission, on our website in the next few days, but we will only do that after we have taken out the references to your name and other personal details, in order to be sure that it contains no information which identifies you or, indeed, any other individuals.

Before I ask Sir Anthony Burden to start leading on the questions, perhaps it would be helpful, for the benefit of the transcript, if you would just formally introduce yourself to the Inquiry.

Ms J: Okay. My name is JJ, I am [Redacted], and I currently work for the Metropolitan Police Service.

Sir William Morris: Okay, J, thank you very much indeed. I now hand you over to Sir Anthony for some questions.

Questions by Sir Anthony Burden

Sir Anthony Burden: Good afternoon, J. As the chairman has said, we have had an opportunity to read your submissions very thoroughly indeed, and we are conscious of the painful and traumatic experience that you have gone through, so I do not intend to labour on the detail, but, please, feel free, I am sure you will, to comment on any features of what has taken place, and then we can discuss that obviously in some detail.

Can I just confirm, are you still pending discipline?

Ms J: Yes.

Sir Anthony Burden: And are you the only officer?

Ms J: No, sir, there are a number of officers. [Redacted] sergeants, my inspector, my DCI, and then the [Redacted] that I mentioned, they are pending – the ones that are left are pending discipline as well. I am not quite certain about the senior officers, but I think that they may be pending discipline as well.

Sir Anthony Burden: Are there any dates that have been given for you, or is it still ongoing?

Ms J: It is still ongoing, we are still waiting.

Sir Anthony Burden: And you are working at [Redacted] at the moment?

Ms J: No, sir, I am on sick leave.

Sir Anthony Burden: What I would like to do, J, from the submission you have given us, is just deal with certain issues which come within our terms of reference. You make a comment yourself in the report that in relation to some aspects, you did not feel you were facing racism, but there were race aspects to the experiences you have had, and I would like to explore that with you in some detail.

Ms J: Okay.

Sir Anthony Burden: I would also like to explore the culture of the DPS, what they, in your view, are trying to achieve, whether they are looking for the truth; you know, what is the culture that is there at the present time.

Ms J: Right.

Sir Anthony Burden: I would also like to look at case delay; case management; welfare support; and because you had some experience at [Redacted]– if you do not mind, I would just like to ask you a few questions about the culture that you experienced there.

Ms J: Yes, sir.

Sir Anthony Burden: I know you had some difficulties in the early days whilst you were there.

So can we just start off by having a look at this culture issue? Just to set the scene, we have had lots of evidence provided to us that says, whenever race or diversity comes on the agenda, people just stop; they are just dazzled by that, and it steers them off into official routes of dealing with things.

Can you just tell us what your experience has been?

Ms J: My experience has been, for instance, in my case – well, in general, I think that if the Metropolitan Police, senior officers have to deal with things concerning race, then really they are running round like headless turkeys – I am trying to think of a better expression, but it creates panic in officers. Rather than trying to deal with a problem, whatever the problem is, they try to – they think about, "Gosh, we could be seen to be racist here", and then all good logic just seems to go out of the window, and they tend to try and deal with being seen as not racist, rather than the issue.

Sir Anthony Burden: Yes. Do you feel that impacted on the way that you have been investigated?

Ms J: Definitely, yes, because I think – when [Redacted] the first thing was, "She is black," and an officer wrote, "Well, the potential exists for the Metropolitan Police Service to be accused of having failed [Redacted]." Stephen Lawrence was an inquiry that – really, they came out badly of that inquiry, they were labelled as institutionally racist.

The last thing they wanted was for that to happen again, so when [Redacted] and she was black, rather than deal with the tragedy, what they did was deal with the fact – with the race issue, or created a race issue and tried to deal with it, if that makes sense.

Sir Anthony Burden: It does. And you say this set up quite a defensive attitude, when they started to look at the facts around the [Redacted], that really one of the first things that came to their mind was looking for scapegoats and people to blame.

Ms J: What came to their mind was looking for someone, people to blame, a scapegoat, and I felt I was perfect, because I am black and they could hold me up and say, "No, there was no racism here, this lady was black, [Redacted]was black, and so she was not treating [Redacted]– she was not being racist towards [Redacted], so there is no racism here, it is just gross misconduct" – not 'just' gross misconduct, but gross misconduct, and that to the Met is far better than being labelled as racist again, and I think that is where it all went wrong, in my opinion.

Sir Anthony Burden: Instead of dealing with what [Redacted] –

Ms J: Yes, and dealing with us, because I should have been investigated properly, all of us should have been investigated, we should have been – the discipline procedure should have taken place immediately as it did, but we should have been – what they should have done was investigate what happened, how did it happen, and is there anybody to blame for it? Or, how are we going to deal with them, and how are we going to set matters right and make sure it does not happen again? But that did not happen, and it is not happening now.

Sir Anthony Burden: In a case like this, from my experience, where a [Redacted] occurs, then there are the usual joint debriefs to look at the way that agencies responded. Those took place, I think, did they not, but you had to go to several of those? That is the [Redacted].

Ms J: Yes, I went to a [Redacted, and I also went to a strategy meeting, the first strategy meeting after [Redacted]. I think they were, as far as I know, the only two meetings between the [Redacted] and police. There may have been other smaller meetings, but those were the only two that were necessary, and I went to both of them, yes, I did.

Sir Anthony Burden: And then, of course, there was what was a [Redacted] in essence.

Ms J: I went to that too, sir.

Sir Anthony Burden: You went to that. Was the discipline aspect held pending the outcome of that [Redacted]?

Ms J: At first, the discipline was held for the court case, they said they did not want to go ahead with the discipline before the court case. Then after the court case, they said they would interview – after the court case, when the [Redacted] was announced, they said that the senior officers would receive 163s as well, so they would be subject to discipline as well, and they would be interviewed.

But since then, I do not actually know what has happened, or what is happening, so I do not know if they have been interviewed.

Sir Anthony Burden: Doing the job you were doing, [Redacted] [Redacted], I mean, it is very specialist.

Ms J: Yes.

Sir Anthony Burden: Do you feel you received all the training that you should have had to undertake that vital role?

Ms J: No, definitely not. When I was at [Redacted] [Redacted], I did my job – a lot of the information was hand-me-down information, you went to the office – you did have a two-week training course at the [Redacted], but obviously, that cannot teach you what you need to know in that short time, and you have a [Redacted] as well, that is two days. Maybe that could teach – I mean, I do not know. At the time, I just got the hand-me-down information, and I did what everybody else was doing. I do not think I realised how badly things were – obviously, when the [Redacted] came, when [Redacted] – in fact, when I came back – I think in my statement I said that I came back from maternity leave, and I sort of looked and realised, "Oh, things are not quite right, we are not doing" – things were not right, and I realised that our training probably was not adequate at all, and we were not able to cope with what we had to deal with.

Sir Anthony Burden: It is the sort of job that the theory is one thing, but you do need guidance through the first practical experiences.

Ms J: Definitely, yeah, and we never had that guidance. No, because we were really just left – I mean, report after report had been written about the [Redacted], and that they were failing, but nothing had ever been done, and even the HMIC report, which was the last report to be written in [Redacted], painted a really bad picture, but nothing was ever done, it was just left.

Sir Anthony Burden: So you were, in effect, crisis-managing too high a workload, an unachievable workload, in essence.

Ms J: Yes.

Sir Anthony Burden: And yet you now find yourself as one of those people doing the work on the ground who is being disciplined.

Ms J: Yes.

Sir Anthony Burden: What are your feelings about that?

Ms J: I do think – we ought to be disciplined, I feel. I feel that all the people involved in [Redacted] should be made to account for what happened [Redacted], but it should be done fairly, you know, and you should not just pick on one person or decide at an early stage that one person has more to account for than the others.

But yes, you know, the discipline system – discipline, it must be – you must have a discipline system in any organisation.

Sir Anthony Burden: But as you say, it has got to be fair. In terms of the delays, you have said that, "Okay, the delay was contributed to by the fact that there was a trial and they did not want to compromise the trial, and then there was the [Redacted]," but, outside of that, do you feel that the investigation against you has been dealt with as quickly as it could possibly be?

Ms J: No, sir. In fact, I think it is a gross abuse of authority, because four years for anything is too long, no matter what mistakes you have made, four years is really too long to keep a person holding on – if I had been a criminal and my case had taken four years – well, it would not even get to court; it would be thrown out. If it had taken a year, it would probably be thrown out. Four years is just unacceptable, I feel.

Sir Anthony Burden: Would you support any change to the system, J, that brought into place time limits on parts of discipline inquiries?

Ms J: Yes, I would. There is supposed to be a time limit, it is supposed to be 120 days, but clearly, that cannot work for every single case. I know that some cases, probably this case would take longer than 120 days, but there should be a time limit, because if you cannot deal with it in a certain period of time, you know, what is it that is keeping – for instance, in this case, what is keeping the discipline team this long, four years – [Redacted] It is just an [Redacted], and they cannot deal with that, and they are supposed to be world leaders when it comes to investigating.

Sir Anthony Burden: Would you then support a process where something was put in place to make the investigating officers accountable, answerable to this person, this body, for delay –

Ms J: Yes, I would.

Sir Anthony Burden: – and make them –

Ms J: Explain, yes, I would, because at the moment, the discipline team appear to be a law unto themselves. You can ask them what you like, they do not have to tell you anything.

Sir Anthony Burden: Would that work, that sort of system of control; would that work, do you think, with some management system internally within the Met, or would it have to be some outside body that actually brought them to account?

Ms J: An outside body.

Sir Anthony Burden: Why do you think that is necessary?

Ms J: Because, I mean, the discipline team – it is an internal thing really, is it not? It is even said that the Commissioner cannot intervene, so what good would an inside team be trying to control a discipline team that cannot be controlled by the Commissioner?

Sir Anthony Burden: That is how it is actually believed, is it, out there?

Ms J: Yes, that is how it is believed, and that is how I believe it too; they are untouchable.

Sir Anthony Burden: Could I then come on to the sort of culture of the DPS? You have already referred to it in essence, but do you feel it is a system which is actually interested in finding the truth?

Ms J: Perhaps in some cases. I would not like to say that they are not interested at all in finding the truth, because I do not think that would be truthful. I think in some cases, they just want to deal with the investigation and find the truth, but in a lot of cases, they get caught up in politics, and then in another amount of cases, they get caught up in the race aspect; if somebody black is involved, or a visible ethnic minority, or if there is some kind of racist complaint, then there is another whole big confusion there, and they get caught up again.

Sir Anthony Burden: So you think there are agendas, like race, that send them off, really, from the clear line that they should be following, that is finding the truth of an investigation?

Ms J: Yes.

Sir Anthony Burden: Can I move to – I think, reading your submission – something that you have a lot of positive things to say about, and that is the welfare support side?

Ms J: Yes.

Sir Anthony Burden: Certainly I think occupational health is a department that you feel has done great things, in fact they travelled to see you, I think, [Redacted] miles plus round journey.

Ms J: That is right.

Sir Anthony Burden: You are not the first person to say that, they must be quite a good unit.

Ms J: They are hard to get hold of, but when you find them, there are not enough of them. People do say bad things about them, but it is not their fault, because, for instance, when this happened, I managed to find one and get counselling; she could only offer me six sessions and that is what you are allowed. It was not enough – I took my six sessions, but it was not enough.

Then I went back again – I think my sergeant referred me on another occasion, and I happened to have a lady who was a bit more forceful, and she said, "I am not sticking to those rules, I am going to stay as long as I am needed", and that is [Redacted].

Sir Anthony Burden: Good, that is nice to hear. I think you had a positive experience with the Federation as well?

Ms J: Yes, the Federation have been very, very good. My Federation rep was [Redacted]. I did not know I needed the Federation, stupidly, but I did and he was very good. I felt at times he was fighting – well, it was just me and him, it seemed, against a huge organisation, and it was a struggle, but it was nice to have him on board.

Sir Anthony Burden: He stuck by it?

Ms J: Yes. The only thing I would say about the Federation – I have got all positive things to say, but the only thing I would say is perhaps – like, for instance, there was a race issue here, or I felt there was a race issue early on, I could not put my finger on it, and [Redacted] could not see at all – the Federation rep, that is not to discredit him in any way, but he could not see that race had anything to do with this, and I just felt – I do not think there are any black Federation officers, so if he had wanted to speak to somebody black – and they are all quite old, you know, quite old in service. Sometimes, I do not know, it might be like – I do not know, I do not know what I am trying to say, but he could not see some of the issues that I felt I could see.

Otherwise, you know, he was very, very good, and I had another Federation rep as well, to deal with the medical retirement side, and she is very, very good as well, and much younger. She is sort of more on – she sees what I see.

Sir Anthony Burden: Yes. And, of course, the medical retirement issue is a big issue for you, because as you say, you see officers who have been dealt with differently from you.

Ms J: Yes.

Sir Anthony Burden: In the decisions that have been made. Can I move on to the media? I mean, that has in itself been quite a trauma for you and your husband and family.

Ms J: Yes.

Sir Anthony Burden: How do you feel that the initial media releases came into effect? Were there official press releases from the MPS?

Ms J: I think the only official press release that I can think of about me was to say that I was on sick leave, but I think there were unofficial press releases about me; I cannot prove it, but I do feel there were some about me, and that is what caused the media frenzy. That is why everybody focused on me, because really, what the media reported was what the Met – was what I felt the Met had been saying.

Sir Anthony Burden: And, of course, you and your husband, and your support from the Black Police Association – I mean, in all the appearances you had to make, the media were there –

Ms J: Yes, all the time.

Sir Anthony Burden: That must have been very difficult to handle, I should think.

Ms J: I just did not have a clue how to handle it. You know, I am sure if you are Joan Collins, you know what to do, but if you are just an ordinary person, walking the street – it is just shocking, completely shocking. I just did not know how to handle it, and I actually asked for help and I never got it.

Sir Anthony Burden: Because you actually gave a press statement, I think?

Ms J: Yes, at one point, I just wanted the thing to stop, and so the Federation gave me the name of a reporter, and I rang him, but I was really even too frightened to speak to him. He wanted certain information from me, and I was not willing to give information about the case; I was a bit too scared, and so really, he did not publish that story at all, because I had not really said anything, but the reason I wanted to speak to him was just to try and say, "Look, focus on something else, just get off my back".

Sir Anthony Burden: Sure. From the submission you have given us, and the discussion we have had, if there was one issue – maybe there will be more than one, but if there was one issue above all others that you would want us to include in the report to make things better for the future, what would it be around, do you think?

Ms J: It would be around diversity, race issues, it would be – I think the Met have – I know they are trying to do things about race and diversity, I think they are trying, I mean, it must be – it is difficult. I mean, you saw the Secret Policeman, that was just a couple – I do not know, a month ago. You could walk into any police station tomorrow, I do not even ask you to go back in time, and you will find there are racist officers there, and they rise through the ranks, and they are the ones dishing out the orders, so it is very, very difficult, the Met has got a really hard job.

But I think maybe we should go back to the drawing board when it comes to training about race issues, and how we deal with race issues, and really rethink things: is there a better way? Because it seems that, clearly, it is not working, at least not for the people on the inside, the black, Asian or ethnic minority officers on the inside.

Sir Anthony Burden: No. Would that be, do you think, a view held by many of your colleagues?

Ms J: Yes.

Sir Anthony Burden: That brings me on to [Redacted], basically, and we all know that [Redacted], you were due to transfer on to the staff at [Redacted], which added all sorts of complications for you.

But you did eventually get there, and you did well; you produced all your [Redacted] within time and indeed ahead of time, so you actually fulfilled a place on the staff at [Redacted].

The damage to vehicles and all that very unacceptable behaviour, criminal behaviour, do you feel that at that time was a result of your involvement in the [Redacted] case?

Ms J: Yes, I think so. I just think people read reports about me and just took exception to me coming, being there.

Sir Anthony Burden: What were your perceptions, J, about the culture that you walked into at [Redacted]?

Ms J: To be honest, I did not really have any perceptions about it. I mean, I had been through [Redacted] myself, and I did not know if it had changed or if it was exactly the same for recruits. I thought I was going into a sort of laddish, if I can say laddish, sort of environment, and really that was as much as I thought about it.

Sir Anthony Burden: Your husband was at [Redacted], I think, at the time?

Ms J: He was not at the [Redacted],

Sir Anthony Burden: And I guess you were preoccupied with other important things at the time, to really –

Ms J: Absolutely.

Sir Anthony Burden: – get any understanding of what was going on at [Redacted], so it would be unfair to ask you, I think. J, thank you very much indeed, that is all I have for you, other than to say: do not take too much on your own shoulders, will you?

Ms J: Right, sir.

Sir William Morris: Thank you, Sir Anthony. J, I will pass you straight over to Miss Weekes.

Questions by Miss Weekes

Miss Weekes: J, we do not often have black female officers come to speak to us, so I would just like to ask you some general questions about the position of black women in the force generally, because you have been there for a while.

We have looked at the statistics, and it is quite clear that each year, black women are underrepresented in the police officer ranks, and we are also aware that they are overrepresented when it comes to admin staff roles. Is that something you were aware of?

Ms J: Yes.

Miss Weekes: I am sure you were. Do you happen to know, from your own experience, if you can, and the experience of others whom you have met, what might be the principal reasons for this?

Ms J: I think it is a very, very difficult job for a black officer, and it is a very, very difficult job for a female black officer, so by the time they have reached five years' service they have gone, for a start, they do not want to stay in that environment, because it is a struggle.

Miss Weekes: J, what is difficult about it? It would not be right for me to guess, because that is just not right, so if you can give any classic examples, it does not matter what it is, so we can really understand why it is more difficult for black officers and black women.

Ms J: Okay, well, for instance, say, in my first week at Hendon – you have to reside there, you have to live in the blocks there, and I think – I was at my first week, and one evening, I was doing my homework, and I heard a bang on my door; I opened it, there was nobody there, but there was a note on the door with a packet of Glo-White, saying, "Try some of this," and – obviously a packet of Glo-White to make you white. I mean, that happened on numerous occasions whilst I was at training school. In fact, I used to just use the Glo-White to wash my shirts, because I had so much of it.

Miss Weekes: How many times was that left on your door, approximately?

Ms J: Probably about nine, ten.

Miss Weekes: You would just appear and there would be another packet stuck on the door?

Ms J: Maybe I would be away for the weekend and it would be there when I came back, you know, a bang again and you would hear people running off, and there would be another packet of Glo-White.

Miss Weekes: Were there any other black women on that part of the corridor?

Ms J: No.

Miss Weekes: You may not have felt confident to do this, but did you consider reporting it?

Ms J: No.

Miss Weekes: Why did you not consider reporting it?

Ms J: Well, confidence – when you are there – another thing is, you are quite isolated –

Miss Weekes: How old were you at that time?

Ms J: I was quite old, [Redacted], when I joined, but it is not age, it is that – you know, sometimes you just feel, "Oh, let it go", you just want to get on with [Redacted], or just getting on with your job and going home at the end of the day, and you do not want to raise any issues. It can make things a lot worse for you, then you highlight yourself even more, and really, all you want to do is –

Miss Weekes: And all those things went through your mind at the time?

Ms J: When that incident happened, you know, it did not cross my mind to report it, actually. I did not think, "I am going to go and tell". It was upsetting, but after a while, I just kept – I took the Glo-White and just made use of it. I thought, "I am not going to get upset over it, because these people are stupid, really".

Also, I think for a black person – for a female in the Metropolitan Police, especially at the time when I joined, there were only six females, or might have been five, in my class, and there were probably about 60, if that, in the entire intake were – when you think most of the intake leave by the end of the six months so you can end up with 30, and the intake were 200 strong each time, so that is not many females, and then there was only two black females, me and another girl, so there is quite a lot of isolation; isolation as a female and then isolation as a black female as well.

Miss Weekes: Do the Black Police Association help women?

Ms J: Yes, they do. When I joined, I do not even think they had really started up yet, it was much later that you heard about them, but I know – I mean, when I had the trouble at work, a lady from the Black Police Association, from the women's group, rang me, and she kept in touch with me quite often, to see how I was.

Miss Weekes: And that was helpful?

Ms J: Very helpful, yes.

Miss Weekes: Just another point on women; you mentioned that of all the officers involved in the [Redacted], you are the only one who was not promoted.

Ms J: Yes.

Miss Weekes: Is that still the case?

Ms J: That is still the case. When I say "promoted", some of the officers were given detective status, which is seen as – although they kept their rank, which was sergeant, they became detective sergeants, which is seen as a nice thing, and in fact, one of the officers who was given it, just before [Redacted], he had applied through the normal process and sat a board, an interview, for however long, and had failed it, and he was not able to become a detective because he failed his board, but after [Redacted], he was given, with the others, detective status.

Of some of the other officers, they were promoted, they were not just promoted, I assume they sat their boards, but they were allowed to sit those boards even though the discipline was still hanging over them, and they have been promoted some twice –

Miss Weekes: Have you asked for a request to sit a board? Have you asked about promotion?

Ms J: No, I have not, but also, earlier on when this happened, I was given a letter to say I was not to really move – not to move from the [Redacted] without the commander of the discipline team being told about it, and really, I should stay there until the discipline had finished.

I have also asked, since then, for medical retirement, even though the doctors have said that they think this has been the best thing for me, the organisation say that they will not consider my medical health until the discipline has finished, even though it has been four years, but at the same time, one of the inspectors has been retired, the discipline things against him have been dropped, and he has been allowed to leave with his full pension, and they have all been allowed to move into places of their choice, jobs of their choice within the Metropolitan Police, everybody except for me.

I feel that I am the only person that has been kept – whose career has come to a halt.

Miss Weekes: Well, if I can end on a reasonably optimistic note, you are aware now that the Independent Police Complaints Commission has begun its work.

Ms J: Yes.

Miss Weekes: And that it is possible for that Commission to take over the review of the running of a disciplinary, particularly where there has been a public complaint, and here there has been, has there not, against you?

Ms J: Yes.

Miss Weekes: Has anybody talked to you about that? Has anybody advised you that you might make some enquiries about whether the Independent Police Complaints Commission should look at why your disciplinary is still outstanding after all this time?

Ms J: I did not know, but perhaps I should mention that to my Federation rep and she might be able to help.

Miss Weekes: I do not know what the answer is, but it seems something must be done – you want it finalised, do you not?

Ms J: I want it finalised.

Miss Weekes: You want to get on with your life?

Ms J: That is right, I want to be dealt with.

Miss Weekes: Thank you very much for your help.

Questions by Sir William Morris

Sir William Morris: J, just one or two points that I want to clarify. You have mentioned the Federation rep, right at the end; have you had the support of the Federation throughout the process?

Ms J: Yes, I have.

Sir William Morris: You said earlier that – at least paraphrasing what you said, that the senior officers are afraid to deal with race, and in the tragic instance of [Redacted], instead of dealing with the issue of [Redacted], they were distracted.

Ms J: Yes.

Sir William Morris: What I am trying to establish here is whether this distraction in other areas, pursuing other avenues, rather than concentrating, looking for, if you like, the race issue to be thrown up or consolidated, were they distracted from the criminal investigation? That is what I want to know.

Ms J: No, I do not think they were distracted from the criminal investigation. For the criminal investigation, I had to write a statement, and I am not sure how it went, but I do not think they were distracted from the criminal investigation. I believe it went well.

Sir William Morris: The picture I get is that this tragedy occurs, and they were fearful that another Stephen Lawrence could be descending on the Met again, with all of its attending problems, and instead of getting on pretty quickly to deal with that and deal with whatever evidence was around, there was some time lost in seeking to look at the race issue. That is what I mean when I say, "Distracted from the criminal investigation"; am I right on that?

Ms J: Yes, sir, you are right.

Sir William Morris: Is there any specific instance that you could point to which would help to highlight the principle of them not looking at all the other policing issues, investigating issues, but concentrating perhaps more on race rather than the general investigation?

Ms J: I can do, but it would all relate to me, is that okay?

Sir William Morris: Sure.

Ms J: For instance, some say – you could say that I was the officer that dealt with [Redacted], and I was, but then there was another officer as well, another white officer, [Redacted], she was what they call the OIC, and she was at [Redacted]. I compare [Redacted] to myself, and forget maybe the senior officers, my sergeants and so on; I was investigated by – for instance, an entire operation was started with three senior officers who were seconded from other parts of the Metropolitan Police, and it was [Redacted], and it was just to look at the crime sheets that I wrote about [Redacted], all the things that I wrote about [Redacted].

I think that should have been done, I think that my crime sheets should have been looked into, but then what about – and so should [Redacted] have been, but they never ever looked into her crime sheets, just mine. An entire operation, they spent time, resources and everything, just looking into my crime sheets, dissecting it, going through it.

Then, also, there was – then after that, they decided to have another mini-operation, it was not given an operation name, whereby an inspector and a sergeant were seconded from two other stations to look at all of my crime sheets, every single one, from the day [Redacted] [Redacted] right back a year. I had not even been in the office a year, because I had been on maternity leave for half of that time, but they did all the crime sheets – all the sheets that I had done 56; I done 56, it was the same as the other people in the office, they had been there the whole entire year, so I had done twice as much as them.

They went through all of those crime sheets and re-opened some of the cases. They said all the crime sheets I had done were bad, and [Redacted] – in fact, nobody else – but just to concentrate on [Redacted], none of her crime sheets were looked into, not going back a year, not the ones she had written on about [Redacted].

And then also, for instance, the senior officers came down heavy on the [Redacted], and I believe it was because I was at the [Redacted]. They never really went to the [Redacted]; in fact, the [Redacted] said – they knew it was a serious matter, but they just felt the Met were getting on with it. But at the [Redacted], we were very much pressurised, and it was a terrible time, with all senior officers constantly coming to the office, going through the files, and everything else.

One of [Redacted] sergeants – they started looking to supervisors as well; they did not even look into one of [Redacted] sergeants, because they forgot. I just do not think that is good enough. I think they concentrated so much on me and the [Redacted], because I was to be the scapegoat for them. They just forgot about everything else.

I mean, you might say that could just be gross misconduct, but I would argue that the Met are world leaders in investigating crimes, they knew exactly what they were doing, they knew that they needed to get out of this situation without being tarnished as racist, and that is what they needed to do.

Sir William Morris: Just one final point: Miss Weekes took you through the underrepresentation of black people in the Met generally, and black women in particular.

There is a debate starting at the moment in respect of finding some fast-tracking to improve the level of black representation in the Met. Have you got a view about that, whether you think it would be a good thing or a bad thing?

Ms J: I think in some ways, it would be a good thing and in some ways, it would be a bad thing. I will start with the bad first: it can make things difficult for black female officers joining, because people will say, "Oh, they are just being given everything, they are given it easy, they do not have to do anything". At the time when I joined, there was quite a big recruitment drive for black people to join, and the first thing I heard on my interview was, "Oh God, she is going to get through because she is black", we do not have to do anything, just sail by.

So there is a danger – they have to be careful that that does not happen, that people do not see it as just letting people in, because these people are supposedly going to be intelligent people, perfectly able to do the job.

The good point is that it might encourage people who are considering – who have to think about it – but shy away from it – to come forward, because I mean, like recently, we have had the leader of the Black Police Association say, "Do not join if you are black", and I do not completely agree with him, but I do understand why that statement was made. You know, it could be sometimes like banging your head against a brick wall, and sometimes you have to give shock tactics to make people listen.

But I think it would be good in highlighting the fact that we do need black people, black females especially, in the police force; as moaning as I sound, it is not all bad, you can make a good career out of it, and why should you not have a good career just because you are black? It is available for all, that career, if you want to do that job.

Sir William Morris: Thank you very much for that. When I made my introductory comments, J, earlier, I said that at the end of our questions, we would offer you the opportunity to make any closing comment or statement that you wish to make, should you so wish.

We have now completed the questions, and if you do want to make a closing comment, then please feel free.

Ms J: Okay. I have mentioned [Redacted]and my sergeants, my direct line supervisors, which were three sergeants and an inspector. I just want to say that it is not to be disrespectful to them, I simply compare myself to [Redacted], they felt deeply, you know, when [Redacted], it was a really hard time ... sorry. It was a hard time for them, so I am not trying to blame them for anything at all.

And also, I think that four years out of my life has been too long, and I think that the Metropolitan Police should really look into the discipline system and think about the effects it has on people and their lives, because your life just comes to a standstill. One day you are walking around, a totally normal, reasonable person, and then you are reduced to a crying, gibbering wreck, and that is because of the time it has taken – not only the fact that it was so badly dealt with in the beginning, but the time that it has taken to come to an end. My life is completely on hold. [Redacted] I just want to get on with my life. I do not mind what they do to me; they can decide to sack me, but at least I will know, and get on with my life.

You know, I have got a child to bring up, and it is just ridiculous, sitting here crying all the time. That is all I have to say, thank you.

Sir William Morris: Well, we do understand. Can I, on behalf of my colleagues, just say thanks very much indeed for your written submission, and thank you for coming along. We hope it has not been too arduous a task for you. You have informed our work immensely, and for that, we are very, very grateful. We wish you all the best.

Ms J: Thank you very much. (Pause).

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	Archive note Important note: This is an archive of the website that was formerly at www.morrisinquiry.gov.uk. It is being hosted on the MPA website for archival purposes only and may contain out-of-date information. Page summary This resource is from the Transcripts section. This section contains a transcript of the private session with JJ, on 20 April 2004. Sections available here: Transcript of private session: Ms JJ Questions by Sir Anthony Burden Questions by Miss Weekes Questions by Sir William Morris Alternative versions This transcript is also available with original line and page numbering. Content Transcript of private session: Ms JJ The name of this witness has been changed, and her submission redacted, to avoid the identification of the individuals and any third parties. Tuesday, 20 April 2004 2.05 pm Sir William Morris: Ms J, welcome and good afternoon to you. Please make yourself as comfortable as you can be made, there is some water there. We are very informal here, and we like to call people in the style and by the title that they want to be called. How do you like to be addressed? Ms J: J is fine. Sir William Morris: Okay, fine, thank you very much. J, first of all, let me say thank you very much indeed for accepting our invitation to attend the Inquiry this afternoon to give evidence. Thank you also for letting us have your written submission which we find extremely useful. Can I say right at the outset that we do appreciate that a process of this nature can, for some of our witnesses, be a very daunting task, so I thought it would be helpful if I just set out very briefly how we intend to conduct the hearing this afternoon. But first of all, let me introduce myself and the other members of the panel. My name is Sir Bill Morris, I am the recently-retired General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union. On my right – as you can see, there are two other members, so on my right is Sir Anthony Burden, who recently retired as chief constable of the South Wales Constabulary, after a very long and distinguished career in the police service; on my left is Miss Anesta Weekes QC. Anesta is an eminent barrister and a recorder, and she also sits as a part-time chairperson of the employment tribunals; she was in fact counsel to the Lawrence Inquiry. As you know, we have been asked by the Metropolitan Police Authority to conduct an independent inquiry into professional standards and employment matters in the Metropolitan Police Service. Our focus is the MPS as an organisation and not the individuals who make up the MPS. Nevertheless, we need to hear from individuals in order to understand how they are affected by the policies, practices, procedures and conventions which govern the way the MPS operates. Although we are a public inquiry, we have decided to conduct this hearing and some others, where we can hear from individuals, in private. The reason for this is that we are very keen to hear from individuals, like your good self, who have had problems with the way the Met operates, but we also understand that some may feel a little bit reluctant to answer questions if they feel that the MPS is listening-in, so to speak. I hope, therefore, that you will find the arrangements that we have made for this afternoon helpful, and I trust that you will have the confidence to speak to us very freely, and we look forward to hearing you. Although we are meeting in private today, as I have just said, we are in fact a public inquiry, and that means that it may be necessary for us to seek further clarification from others about what you say to us in your written submission, and what you will tell us today. If we do decide to seek any further clarification, we will do so in a means that does not identify your good self; also, let me assure you that we will try to cause you the least possible inconvenience if we have to seek further clarification, and we would not do that without your permission. The inquiry that we are conducting is inquisitorial, it is not adversarial in any shape or form. We are very keen to enquire into those issues raised by our terms of reference, so that we can make the appropriate recommendations for further good practice, rather than concentrating just on making criticisms. We have had your written submission, so we have no wish to go back over the details about what has happened. These have been very carefully set out, and we are now clear as a panel about the events. What we now want to do is to ask you some questions which enable us to draw on your experience to enhance and assist our work. At the end of these introductory remarks, one of my colleagues will lead on our questions to you, and then the remainder of the panel, myself and the other colleague, may have one or two supplementary questions that we want to put to you. When we have finished with our questions, I will offer you the opportunity to make a brief closing comment or statement. It is fair that I should just draw to your attention that a transcript is being taken, so that we have a proper record of the evidence that each witness gives to us. We are hoping to publish this transcript, together with your written submission, on our website in the next few days, but we will only do that after we have taken out the references to your name and other personal details, in order to be sure that it contains no information which identifies you or, indeed, any other individuals. Before I ask Sir Anthony Burden to start leading on the questions, perhaps it would be helpful, for the benefit of the transcript, if you would just formally introduce yourself to the Inquiry. Ms J: Okay. My name is JJ, I am [Redacted], and I currently work for the Metropolitan Police Service. Sir William Morris: Okay, J, thank you very much indeed. I now hand you over to Sir Anthony for some questions. Questions by Sir Anthony Burden Sir Anthony Burden: Good afternoon, J. As the chairman has said, we have had an opportunity to read your submissions very thoroughly indeed, and we are conscious of the painful and traumatic experience that you have gone through, so I do not intend to labour on the detail, but, please, feel free, I am sure you will, to comment on any features of what has taken place, and then we can discuss that obviously in some detail. Can I just confirm, are you still pending discipline? Ms J: Yes. Sir Anthony Burden: And are you the only officer? Ms J: No, sir, there are a number of officers. [Redacted] sergeants, my inspector, my DCI, and then the [Redacted] that I mentioned, they are pending – the ones that are left are pending discipline as well. I am not quite certain about the senior officers, but I think that they may be pending discipline as well. Sir Anthony Burden: Are there any dates that have been given for you, or is it still ongoing? Ms J: It is still ongoing, we are still waiting. Sir Anthony Burden: And you are working at [Redacted] at the moment? Ms J: No, sir, I am on sick leave. Sir Anthony Burden: What I would like to do, J, from the submission you have given us, is just deal with certain issues which come within our terms of reference. You make a comment yourself in the report that in relation to some aspects, you did not feel you were facing racism, but there were race aspects to the experiences you have had, and I would like to explore that with you in some detail. Ms J: Okay. Sir Anthony Burden: I would also like to explore the culture of the DPS, what they, in your view, are trying to achieve, whether they are looking for the truth; you know, what is the culture that is there at the present time. Ms J: Right. Sir Anthony Burden: I would also like to look at case delay; case management; welfare support; and because you had some experience at [Redacted]– if you do not mind, I would just like to ask you a few questions about the culture that you experienced there. Ms J: Yes, sir. Sir Anthony Burden: I know you had some difficulties in the early days whilst you were there. So can we just start off by having a look at this culture issue? Just to set the scene, we have had lots of evidence provided to us that says, whenever race or diversity comes on the agenda, people just stop; they are just dazzled by that, and it steers them off into official routes of dealing with things. Can you just tell us what your experience has been? Ms J: My experience has been, for instance, in my case – well, in general, I think that if the Metropolitan Police, senior officers have to deal with things concerning race, then really they are running round like headless turkeys – I am trying to think of a better expression, but it creates panic in officers. Rather than trying to deal with a problem, whatever the problem is, they try to – they think about, "Gosh, we could be seen to be racist here", and then all good logic just seems to go out of the window, and they tend to try and deal with being seen as not racist, rather than the issue. Sir Anthony Burden: Yes. Do you feel that impacted on the way that you have been investigated? Ms J: Definitely, yes, because I think – when [Redacted] the first thing was, "She is black," and an officer wrote, "Well, the potential exists for the Metropolitan Police Service to be accused of having failed [Redacted]." Stephen Lawrence was an inquiry that – really, they came out badly of that inquiry, they were labelled as institutionally racist. The last thing they wanted was for that to happen again, so when [Redacted] and she was black, rather than deal with the tragedy, what they did was deal with the fact – with the race issue, or created a race issue and tried to deal with it, if that makes sense. Sir Anthony Burden: It does. And you say this set up quite a defensive attitude, when they started to look at the facts around the [Redacted], that really one of the first things that came to their mind was looking for scapegoats and people to blame. Ms J: What came to their mind was looking for someone, people to blame, a scapegoat, and I felt I was perfect, because I am black and they could hold me up and say, "No, there was no racism here, this lady was black, [Redacted]was black, and so she was not treating [Redacted]– she was not being racist towards [Redacted], so there is no racism here, it is just gross misconduct" – not 'just' gross misconduct, but gross misconduct, and that to the Met is far better than being labelled as racist again, and I think that is where it all went wrong, in my opinion. Sir Anthony Burden: Instead of dealing with what [Redacted] – Ms J: Yes, and dealing with us, because I should have been investigated properly, all of us should have been investigated, we should have been – the discipline procedure should have taken place immediately as it did, but we should have been – what they should have done was investigate what happened, how did it happen, and is there anybody to blame for it? Or, how are we going to deal with them, and how are we going to set matters right and make sure it does not happen again? But that did not happen, and it is not happening now. Sir Anthony Burden: In a case like this, from my experience, where a [Redacted] occurs, then there are the usual joint debriefs to look at the way that agencies responded. Those took place, I think, did they not, but you had to go to several of those? That is the [Redacted]. Ms J: Yes, I went to a [Redacted, and I also went to a strategy meeting, the first strategy meeting after [Redacted]. I think they were, as far as I know, the only two meetings between the [Redacted] and police. There may have been other smaller meetings, but those were the only two that were necessary, and I went to both of them, yes, I did. Sir Anthony Burden: And then, of course, there was what was a [Redacted] in essence. Ms J: I went to that too, sir. Sir Anthony Burden: You went to that. Was the discipline aspect held pending the outcome of that [Redacted]? Ms J: At first, the discipline was held for the court case, they said they did not want to go ahead with the discipline before the court case. Then after the court case, they said they would interview – after the court case, when the [Redacted] was announced, they said that the senior officers would receive 163s as well, so they would be subject to discipline as well, and they would be interviewed. But since then, I do not actually know what has happened, or what is happening, so I do not know if they have been interviewed. Sir Anthony Burden: Doing the job you were doing, [Redacted] [Redacted], I mean, it is very specialist. Ms J: Yes. Sir Anthony Burden: Do you feel you received all the training that you should have had to undertake that vital role? Ms J: No, definitely not. When I was at [Redacted] [Redacted], I did my job – a lot of the information was hand-me-down information, you went to the office – you did have a two-week training course at the [Redacted], but obviously, that cannot teach you what you need to know in that short time, and you have a [Redacted] as well, that is two days. Maybe that could teach – I mean, I do not know. At the time, I just got the hand-me-down information, and I did what everybody else was doing. I do not think I realised how badly things were – obviously, when the [Redacted] came, when [Redacted] – in fact, when I came back – I think in my statement I said that I came back from maternity leave, and I sort of looked and realised, "Oh, things are not quite right, we are not doing" – things were not right, and I realised that our training probably was not adequate at all, and we were not able to cope with what we had to deal with. Sir Anthony Burden: It is the sort of job that the theory is one thing, but you do need guidance through the first practical experiences. Ms J: Definitely, yeah, and we never had that guidance. No, because we were really just left – I mean, report after report had been written about the [Redacted], and that they were failing, but nothing had ever been done, and even the HMIC report, which was the last report to be written in [Redacted], painted a really bad picture, but nothing was ever done, it was just left. Sir Anthony Burden: So you were, in effect, crisis-managing too high a workload, an unachievable workload, in essence. Ms J: Yes. Sir Anthony Burden: And yet you now find yourself as one of those people doing the work on the ground who is being disciplined. Ms J: Yes. Sir Anthony Burden: What are your feelings about that? Ms J: I do think – we ought to be disciplined, I feel. I feel that all the people involved in [Redacted] should be made to account for what happened [Redacted], but it should be done fairly, you know, and you should not just pick on one person or decide at an early stage that one person has more to account for than the others. But yes, you know, the discipline system – discipline, it must be – you must have a discipline system in any organisation. Sir Anthony Burden: But as you say, it has got to be fair. In terms of the delays, you have said that, "Okay, the delay was contributed to by the fact that there was a trial and they did not want to compromise the trial, and then there was the [Redacted]," but, outside of that, do you feel that the investigation against you has been dealt with as quickly as it could possibly be? Ms J: No, sir. In fact, I think it is a gross abuse of authority, because four years for anything is too long, no matter what mistakes you have made, four years is really too long to keep a person holding on – if I had been a criminal and my case had taken four years – well, it would not even get to court; it would be thrown out. If it had taken a year, it would probably be thrown out. Four years is just unacceptable, I feel. Sir Anthony Burden: Would you support any change to the system, J, that brought into place time limits on parts of discipline inquiries? Ms J: Yes, I would. There is supposed to be a time limit, it is supposed to be 120 days, but clearly, that cannot work for every single case. I know that some cases, probably this case would take longer than 120 days, but there should be a time limit, because if you cannot deal with it in a certain period of time, you know, what is it that is keeping – for instance, in this case, what is keeping the discipline team this long, four years – [Redacted] It is just an [Redacted], and they cannot deal with that, and they are supposed to be world leaders when it comes to investigating. Sir Anthony Burden: Would you then support a process where something was put in place to make the investigating officers accountable, answerable to this person, this body, for delay – Ms J: Yes, I would. Sir Anthony Burden: – and make them – Ms J: Explain, yes, I would, because at the moment, the discipline team appear to be a law unto themselves. You can ask them what you like, they do not have to tell you anything. Sir Anthony Burden: Would that work, that sort of system of control; would that work, do you think, with some management system internally within the Met, or would it have to be some outside body that actually brought them to account? Ms J: An outside body. Sir Anthony Burden: Why do you think that is necessary? Ms J: Because, I mean, the discipline team – it is an internal thing really, is it not? It is even said that the Commissioner cannot intervene, so what good would an inside team be trying to control a discipline team that cannot be controlled by the Commissioner? Sir Anthony Burden: That is how it is actually believed, is it, out there? Ms J: Yes, that is how it is believed, and that is how I believe it too; they are untouchable. Sir Anthony Burden: Could I then come on to the sort of culture of the DPS? You have already referred to it in essence, but do you feel it is a system which is actually interested in finding the truth? Ms J: Perhaps in some cases. I would not like to say that they are not interested at all in finding the truth, because I do not think that would be truthful. I think in some cases, they just want to deal with the investigation and find the truth, but in a lot of cases, they get caught up in politics, and then in another amount of cases, they get caught up in the race aspect; if somebody black is involved, or a visible ethnic minority, or if there is some kind of racist complaint, then there is another whole big confusion there, and they get caught up again. Sir Anthony Burden: So you think there are agendas, like race, that send them off, really, from the clear line that they should be following, that is finding the truth of an investigation? Ms J: Yes. Sir Anthony Burden: Can I move to – I think, reading your submission – something that you have a lot of positive things to say about, and that is the welfare support side? Ms J: Yes. Sir Anthony Burden: Certainly I think occupational health is a department that you feel has done great things, in fact they travelled to see you, I think, [Redacted] miles plus round journey. Ms J: That is right. Sir Anthony Burden: You are not the first person to say that, they must be quite a good unit. Ms J: They are hard to get hold of, but when you find them, there are not enough of them. People do say bad things about them, but it is not their fault, because, for instance, when this happened, I managed to find one and get counselling; she could only offer me six sessions and that is what you are allowed. It was not enough – I took my six sessions, but it was not enough. Then I went back again – I think my sergeant referred me on another occasion, and I happened to have a lady who was a bit more forceful, and she said, "I am not sticking to those rules, I am going to stay as long as I am needed", and that is [Redacted]. Sir Anthony Burden: Good, that is nice to hear. I think you had a positive experience with the Federation as well? Ms J: Yes, the Federation have been very, very good. My Federation rep was [Redacted]. I did not know I needed the Federation, stupidly, but I did and he was very good. I felt at times he was fighting – well, it was just me and him, it seemed, against a huge organisation, and it was a struggle, but it was nice to have him on board. Sir Anthony Burden: He stuck by it? Ms J: Yes. The only thing I would say about the Federation – I have got all positive things to say, but the only thing I would say is perhaps – like, for instance, there was a race issue here, or I felt there was a race issue early on, I could not put my finger on it, and [Redacted] could not see at all – the Federation rep, that is not to discredit him in any way, but he could not see that race had anything to do with this, and I just felt – I do not think there are any black Federation officers, so if he had wanted to speak to somebody black – and they are all quite old, you know, quite old in service. Sometimes, I do not know, it might be like – I do not know, I do not know what I am trying to say, but he could not see some of the issues that I felt I could see. Otherwise, you know, he was very, very good, and I had another Federation rep as well, to deal with the medical retirement side, and she is very, very good as well, and much younger. She is sort of more on – she sees what I see. Sir Anthony Burden: Yes. And, of course, the medical retirement issue is a big issue for you, because as you say, you see officers who have been dealt with differently from you. Ms J: Yes. Sir Anthony Burden: In the decisions that have been made. Can I move on to the media? I mean, that has in itself been quite a trauma for you and your husband and family. Ms J: Yes. Sir Anthony Burden: How do you feel that the initial media releases came into effect? Were there official press releases from the MPS? Ms J: I think the only official press release that I can think of about me was to say that I was on sick leave, but I think there were unofficial press releases about me; I cannot prove it, but I do feel there were some about me, and that is what caused the media frenzy. That is why everybody focused on me, because really, what the media reported was what the Met – was what I felt the Met had been saying. Sir Anthony Burden: And, of course, you and your husband, and your support from the Black Police Association – I mean, in all the appearances you had to make, the media were there – Ms J: Yes, all the time. Sir Anthony Burden: That must have been very difficult to handle, I should think. Ms J: I just did not have a clue how to handle it. You know, I am sure if you are Joan Collins, you know what to do, but if you are just an ordinary person, walking the street – it is just shocking, completely shocking. I just did not know how to handle it, and I actually asked for help and I never got it. Sir Anthony Burden: Because you actually gave a press statement, I think? Ms J: Yes, at one point, I just wanted the thing to stop, and so the Federation gave me the name of a reporter, and I rang him, but I was really even too frightened to speak to him. He wanted certain information from me, and I was not willing to give information about the case; I was a bit too scared, and so really, he did not publish that story at all, because I had not really said anything, but the reason I wanted to speak to him was just to try and say, "Look, focus on something else, just get off my back". Sir Anthony Burden: Sure. From the submission you have given us, and the discussion we have had, if there was one issue – maybe there will be more than one, but if there was one issue above all others that you would want us to include in the report to make things better for the future, what would it be around, do you think? Ms J: It would be around diversity, race issues, it would be – I think the Met have – I know they are trying to do things about race and diversity, I think they are trying, I mean, it must be – it is difficult. I mean, you saw the Secret Policeman, that was just a couple – I do not know, a month ago. You could walk into any police station tomorrow, I do not even ask you to go back in time, and you will find there are racist officers there, and they rise through the ranks, and they are the ones dishing out the orders, so it is very, very difficult, the Met has got a really hard job. But I think maybe we should go back to the drawing board when it comes to training about race issues, and how we deal with race issues, and really rethink things: is there a better way? Because it seems that, clearly, it is not working, at least not for the people on the inside, the black, Asian or ethnic minority officers on the inside. Sir Anthony Burden: No. Would that be, do you think, a view held by many of your colleagues? Ms J: Yes. Sir Anthony Burden: That brings me on to [Redacted], basically, and we all know that [Redacted], you were due to transfer on to the staff at [Redacted], which added all sorts of complications for you. But you did eventually get there, and you did well; you produced all your [Redacted] within time and indeed ahead of time, so you actually fulfilled a place on the staff at [Redacted]. The damage to vehicles and all that very unacceptable behaviour, criminal behaviour, do you feel that at that time was a result of your involvement in the [Redacted] case? Ms J: Yes, I think so. I just think people read reports about me and just took exception to me coming, being there. Sir Anthony Burden: What were your perceptions, J, about the culture that you walked into at [Redacted]? Ms J: To be honest, I did not really have any perceptions about it. I mean, I had been through [Redacted] myself, and I did not know if it had changed or if it was exactly the same for recruits. I thought I was going into a sort of laddish, if I can say laddish, sort of environment, and really that was as much as I thought about it. Sir Anthony Burden: Your husband was at [Redacted], I think, at the time? Ms J: He was not at the [Redacted], Sir Anthony Burden: And I guess you were preoccupied with other important things at the time, to really – Ms J: Absolutely. Sir Anthony Burden: – get any understanding of what was going on at [Redacted], so it would be unfair to ask you, I think. J, thank you very much indeed, that is all I have for you, other than to say: do not take too much on your own shoulders, will you? Ms J: Right, sir. Sir William Morris: Thank you, Sir Anthony. J, I will pass you straight over to Miss Weekes. Questions by Miss Weekes Miss Weekes: J, we do not often have black female officers come to speak to us, so I would just like to ask you some general questions about the position of black women in the force generally, because you have been there for a while. We have looked at the statistics, and it is quite clear that each year, black women are underrepresented in the police officer ranks, and we are also aware that they are overrepresented when it comes to admin staff roles. Is that something you were aware of? Ms J: Yes. Miss Weekes: I am sure you were. Do you happen to know, from your own experience, if you can, and the experience of others whom you have met, what might be the principal reasons for this? Ms J: I think it is a very, very difficult job for a black officer, and it is a very, very difficult job for a female black officer, so by the time they have reached five years' service they have gone, for a start, they do not want to stay in that environment, because it is a struggle. Miss Weekes: J, what is difficult about it? It would not be right for me to guess, because that is just not right, so if you can give any classic examples, it does not matter what it is, so we can really understand why it is more difficult for black officers and black women. Ms J: Okay, well, for instance, say, in my first week at Hendon – you have to reside there, you have to live in the blocks there, and I think – I was at my first week, and one evening, I was doing my homework, and I heard a bang on my door; I opened it, there was nobody there, but there was a note on the door with a packet of Glo-White, saying, "Try some of this," and – obviously a packet of Glo-White to make you white. I mean, that happened on numerous occasions whilst I was at training school. In fact, I used to just use the Glo-White to wash my shirts, because I had so much of it. Miss Weekes: How many times was that left on your door, approximately? Ms J: Probably about nine, ten. Miss Weekes: You would just appear and there would be another packet stuck on the door? Ms J: Maybe I would be away for the weekend and it would be there when I came back, you know, a bang again and you would hear people running off, and there would be another packet of Glo-White. Miss Weekes: Were there any other black women on that part of the corridor? Ms J: No. Miss Weekes: You may not have felt confident to do this, but did you consider reporting it? Ms J: No. Miss Weekes: Why did you not consider reporting it? Ms J: Well, confidence – when you are there – another thing is, you are quite isolated – Miss Weekes: How old were you at that time? Ms J: I was quite old, [Redacted], when I joined, but it is not age, it is that – you know, sometimes you just feel, "Oh, let it go", you just want to get on with [Redacted], or just getting on with your job and going home at the end of the day, and you do not want to raise any issues. It can make things a lot worse for you, then you highlight yourself even more, and really, all you want to do is – Miss Weekes: And all those things went through your mind at the time? Ms J: When that incident happened, you know, it did not cross my mind to report it, actually. I did not think, "I am going to go and tell". It was upsetting, but after a while, I just kept – I took the Glo-White and just made use of it. I thought, "I am not going to get upset over it, because these people are stupid, really". Also, I think for a black person – for a female in the Metropolitan Police, especially at the time when I joined, there were only six females, or might have been five, in my class, and there were probably about 60, if that, in the entire intake were – when you think most of the intake leave by the end of the six months so you can end up with 30, and the intake were 200 strong each time, so that is not many females, and then there was only two black females, me and another girl, so there is quite a lot of isolation; isolation as a female and then isolation as a black female as well. Miss Weekes: Do the Black Police Association help women? Ms J: Yes, they do. When I joined, I do not even think they had really started up yet, it was much later that you heard about them, but I know – I mean, when I had the trouble at work, a lady from the Black Police Association, from the women's group, rang me, and she kept in touch with me quite often, to see how I was. Miss Weekes: And that was helpful? Ms J: Very helpful, yes. Miss Weekes: Just another point on women; you mentioned that of all the officers involved in the [Redacted], you are the only one who was not promoted. Ms J: Yes. Miss Weekes: Is that still the case? Ms J: That is still the case. When I say "promoted", some of the officers were given detective status, which is seen as – although they kept their rank, which was sergeant, they became detective sergeants, which is seen as a nice thing, and in fact, one of the officers who was given it, just before [Redacted], he had applied through the normal process and sat a board, an interview, for however long, and had failed it, and he was not able to become a detective because he failed his board, but after [Redacted], he was given, with the others, detective status. Of some of the other officers, they were promoted, they were not just promoted, I assume they sat their boards, but they were allowed to sit those boards even though the discipline was still hanging over them, and they have been promoted some twice – Miss Weekes: Have you asked for a request to sit a board? Have you asked about promotion? Ms J: No, I have not, but also, earlier on when this happened, I was given a letter to say I was not to really move – not to move from the [Redacted] without the commander of the discipline team being told about it, and really, I should stay there until the discipline had finished. I have also asked, since then, for medical retirement, even though the doctors have said that they think this has been the best thing for me, the organisation say that they will not consider my medical health until the discipline has finished, even though it has been four years, but at the same time, one of the inspectors has been retired, the discipline things against him have been dropped, and he has been allowed to leave with his full pension, and they have all been allowed to move into places of their choice, jobs of their choice within the Metropolitan Police, everybody except for me. I feel that I am the only person that has been kept – whose career has come to a halt. Miss Weekes: Well, if I can end on a reasonably optimistic note, you are aware now that the Independent Police Complaints Commission has begun its work. Ms J: Yes. Miss Weekes: And that it is possible for that Commission to take over the review of the running of a disciplinary, particularly where there has been a public complaint, and here there has been, has there not, against you? Ms J: Yes. Miss Weekes: Has anybody talked to you about that? Has anybody advised you that you might make some enquiries about whether the Independent Police Complaints Commission should look at why your disciplinary is still outstanding after all this time? Ms J: I did not know, but perhaps I should mention that to my Federation rep and she might be able to help. Miss Weekes: I do not know what the answer is, but it seems something must be done – you want it finalised, do you not? Ms J: I want it finalised. Miss Weekes: You want to get on with your life? Ms J: That is right, I want to be dealt with. Miss Weekes: Thank you very much for your help. Questions by Sir William Morris Sir William Morris: J, just one or two points that I want to clarify. You have mentioned the Federation rep, right at the end; have you had the support of the Federation throughout the process? Ms J: Yes, I have. Sir William Morris: You said earlier that – at least paraphrasing what you said, that the senior officers are afraid to deal with race, and in the tragic instance of [Redacted], instead of dealing with the issue of [Redacted], they were distracted. Ms J: Yes. Sir William Morris: What I am trying to establish here is whether this distraction in other areas, pursuing other avenues, rather than concentrating, looking for, if you like, the race issue to be thrown up or consolidated, were they distracted from the criminal investigation? That is what I want to know. Ms J: No, I do not think they were distracted from the criminal investigation. For the criminal investigation, I had to write a statement, and I am not sure how it went, but I do not think they were distracted from the criminal investigation. I believe it went well. Sir William Morris: The picture I get is that this tragedy occurs, and they were fearful that another Stephen Lawrence could be descending on the Met again, with all of its attending problems, and instead of getting on pretty quickly to deal with that and deal with whatever evidence was around, there was some time lost in seeking to look at the race issue. That is what I mean when I say, "Distracted from the criminal investigation"; am I right on that? Ms J: Yes, sir, you are right. Sir William Morris: Is there any specific instance that you could point to which would help to highlight the principle of them not looking at all the other policing issues, investigating issues, but concentrating perhaps more on race rather than the general investigation? Ms J: I can do, but it would all relate to me, is that okay? Sir William Morris: Sure. Ms J: For instance, some say – you could say that I was the officer that dealt with [Redacted], and I was, but then there was another officer as well, another white officer, [Redacted], she was what they call the OIC, and she was at [Redacted]. I compare [Redacted] to myself, and forget maybe the senior officers, my sergeants and so on; I was investigated by – for instance, an entire operation was started with three senior officers who were seconded from other parts of the Metropolitan Police, and it was [Redacted], and it was just to look at the crime sheets that I wrote about [Redacted], all the things that I wrote about [Redacted]. I think that should have been done, I think that my crime sheets should have been looked into, but then what about – and so should [Redacted] have been, but they never ever looked into her crime sheets, just mine. An entire operation, they spent time, resources and everything, just looking into my crime sheets, dissecting it, going through it. Then, also, there was – then after that, they decided to have another mini-operation, it was not given an operation name, whereby an inspector and a sergeant were seconded from two other stations to look at all of my crime sheets, every single one, from the day [Redacted] [Redacted] right back a year. I had not even been in the office a year, because I had been on maternity leave for half of that time, but they did all the crime sheets – all the sheets that I had done 56; I done 56, it was the same as the other people in the office, they had been there the whole entire year, so I had done twice as much as them. They went through all of those crime sheets and re-opened some of the cases. They said all the crime sheets I had done were bad, and [Redacted] – in fact, nobody else – but just to concentrate on [Redacted], none of her crime sheets were looked into, not going back a year, not the ones she had written on about [Redacted]. And then also, for instance, the senior officers came down heavy on the [Redacted], and I believe it was because I was at the [Redacted]. They never really went to the [Redacted]; in fact, the [Redacted] said – they knew it was a serious matter, but they just felt the Met were getting on with it. But at the [Redacted], we were very much pressurised, and it was a terrible time, with all senior officers constantly coming to the office, going through the files, and everything else. One of [Redacted] sergeants – they started looking to supervisors as well; they did not even look into one of [Redacted] sergeants, because they forgot. I just do not think that is good enough. I think they concentrated so much on me and the [Redacted], because I was to be the scapegoat for them. They just forgot about everything else. I mean, you might say that could just be gross misconduct, but I would argue that the Met are world leaders in investigating crimes, they knew exactly what they were doing, they knew that they needed to get out of this situation without being tarnished as racist, and that is what they needed to do. Sir William Morris: Just one final point: Miss Weekes took you through the underrepresentation of black people in the Met generally, and black women in particular. There is a debate starting at the moment in respect of finding some fast-tracking to improve the level of black representation in the Met. Have you got a view about that, whether you think it would be a good thing or a bad thing? Ms J: I think in some ways, it would be a good thing and in some ways, it would be a bad thing. I will start with the bad first: it can make things difficult for black female officers joining, because people will say, "Oh, they are just being given everything, they are given it easy, they do not have to do anything". At the time when I joined, there was quite a big recruitment drive for black people to join, and the first thing I heard on my interview was, "Oh God, she is going to get through because she is black", we do not have to do anything, just sail by. So there is a danger – they have to be careful that that does not happen, that people do not see it as just letting people in, because these people are supposedly going to be intelligent people, perfectly able to do the job. The good point is that it might encourage people who are considering – who have to think about it – but shy away from it – to come forward, because I mean, like recently, we have had the leader of the Black Police Association say, "Do not join if you are black", and I do not completely agree with him, but I do understand why that statement was made. You know, it could be sometimes like banging your head against a brick wall, and sometimes you have to give shock tactics to make people listen. But I think it would be good in highlighting the fact that we do need black people, black females especially, in the police force; as moaning as I sound, it is not all bad, you can make a good career out of it, and why should you not have a good career just because you are black? It is available for all, that career, if you want to do that job. Sir William Morris: Thank you very much for that. When I made my introductory comments, J, earlier, I said that at the end of our questions, we would offer you the opportunity to make any closing comment or statement that you wish to make, should you so wish. We have now completed the questions, and if you do want to make a closing comment, then please feel free. Ms J: Okay. I have mentioned [Redacted]and my sergeants, my direct line supervisors, which were three sergeants and an inspector. I just want to say that it is not to be disrespectful to them, I simply compare myself to [Redacted], they felt deeply, you know, when [Redacted], it was a really hard time ... sorry. It was a hard time for them, so I am not trying to blame them for anything at all. And also, I think that four years out of my life has been too long, and I think that the Metropolitan Police should really look into the discipline system and think about the effects it has on people and their lives, because your life just comes to a standstill. One day you are walking around, a totally normal, reasonable person, and then you are reduced to a crying, gibbering wreck, and that is because of the time it has taken – not only the fact that it was so badly dealt with in the beginning, but the time that it has taken to come to an end. My life is completely on hold. [Redacted] I just want to get on with my life. I do not mind what they do to me; they can decide to sack me, but at least I will know, and get on with my life. You know, I have got a child to bring up, and it is just ridiculous, sitting here crying all the time. That is all I have to say, thank you. Sir William Morris: Well, we do understand. Can I, on behalf of my colleagues, just say thanks very much indeed for your written submission, and thank you for coming along. We hope it has not been too arduous a task for you. You have informed our work immensely, and for that, we are very, very grateful. We wish you all the best. Ms J: Thank you very much. (Pause). Internal links On this website: Evidence: JJ Evidence provided by and documents referred to by JJ, in her appearance at the Inquiry.
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Transcripts > JJ (20 Apr 04)
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