Important note: This is an archive of the website that was formerly at www.morrisinquiry.gov.uk. It is being hosted on the MPA website for archival purposes only and may contain out-of-date information.

This resource is from the Transcripts section. This section contains a transcript of the public session with the Metropolitan Police Federation Women’s Committee on 28 April 2004.

Sections available here:

• Transcript of public session: Ms A Earl, Ms S Drury and Ms L Kitchener of the Metropolitan Police Federation Women’s Committee
  • Questions by Miss Weekes
  • Questions by Sir Anthony Burden

This transcript is also available with original line and page numbering.

Transcript of public session: Ms A Earl, Ms S Drury and Ms L Kitchener of the Metropolitan Police Federation Women’s Committee

Wednesday, 28 April 2004
2.00 pm

Sir William Morris: Right, could I first of all say good afternoon and welcome, and I am not quite sure who will be leading the responses out of the three names, and I am seeing faces that are doing the return journey, but no doubt, that will become clear as we proceed.

But can I, first of all, thank you all for accepting our invitation to attend the Inquiry and to give us some evidence, and thank you also for your written submission which we found extremely helpful.

I appreciate that, for some of our witnesses, this process may seem somewhat daunting, so I thought it would be helpful if I set out very briefly how we propose to conduct the hearing this afternoon.

But first, let me introduce myself and the other members of my panel. I am Sir Bill Morris, recently retired General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union, but, as you can see, there are three members of the panel. On my right is Sir Anthony Burden, who recently retired as Chief Constable of the South Wales Constabulary, after a very long and distinguished career in the police service. And on my left is Miss Anesta Weekes; Anesta is an eminent barrister, she sits as a recorder and she is also a part-time chairperson of employment tribunals. She was also counsel to the Lawrence Inquiry.

You will all know that we have been asked by the Metropolitan Police Authority to conduct an independent inquiry into professional standards and workplace matters within the Metropolitan Police Service. We have said quite deliberately, and repeat now, that our focus is the MPS itself, as an organisation, and not the individuals who make up the MPS.

The inquiry that we are conducting is inquisitorial, it is not by nature or character adversarial, in any shape or form. Nevertheless, we are quite keen to enquire into the issues raised by our terms of reference, so that we can make appropriate recommendations for further good practice within the Met, rather than concentrating on criticising the organisation or particular individuals.

To help us in our task, we are very keen to hear from all our witnesses not only what is wrong with the MPS, but also what is right with it; most importantly, how we can contribute to make it better.

It is just right that I should point out that a transcript is being taken, so that we can have a proper record of the evidence given by all our witnesses, and this will be posted on our website later today.

At the end of these introductory remarks, I will lead on the questions to you, followed by my colleagues, Miss Weekes first, and then followed by Sir Anthony, and any supplementary questions that I might find necessary.

At the conclusion of our questions, I will offer you the opportunity for a brief closing comment, and you will have to decide between you if you do decide to take the opportunity.

I am not sure whether it is Ms Earl or Ms Drury, because I know you are secretary and chair respectively of the committee, but the submission signed by Ms Drury has been extremely helpful, and we are very grateful for that.

A copy of the submission will be posted again on our website following the evidence today, but in your submission, you have pointed out for us some interesting areas: you have led us to focus on the introduction to your organisation, you have shared some evidence with us about flexible working, about promotion, training, and also issues around pregnancy risk assessment and breast feeding facilities; finally, you have talked a little bit about discipline.

We would like to ask you questions on all these areas which are listed in the material, and we want also to explore other issues, upon which we might have had evidence from other witnesses, to get your interpretation and your contribution on all this.

But before we start the questioning and the discussion, for the benefit of the transcript, could I please invite you to just formally introduce yourselves to the Inquiry.

Ms Drury: Yes, my name is Sarah Drury, I am a police sergeant in the Metropolitan Police, currently serving in the traffic division, and the position within the Federation at this time is as chair of the Metropolitan and City, the 8 region women's committee.

Ms Earl: I am Andrea Earl, I am a constable in the Metropolitan Police, in territorial policing. I am the secretary of that 8 region women's committee.

Ms Kitchener: I am Lindsey Kitchener, I am the assistant secretary of the women's committee. I am a constable, and I work on a response team on Greenwich borough.

Sir William Morris: Thank you very much indeed, all three of you. We have read your written submission, and we find it interesting, but first of all, I would just like you to help us to understand how your committee works a bit better.

In your submission, you mention that the committee comprises women, obviously, of the following ranks: constable, sergeant and inspector, from the reserve vacancies. We make the assumption here that the reserve vacancy as a statement is making reference to the Police Federation?

Ms Earl: Yes, it is a position for women's reserves, and it was brought about way back in 1948, when there was the Oaksey Committee, and it was to put the women's viewpoint forward. There were very few women then in the Federation, and so a position was reserved for women, and it was not until 1991 – with the implementation of the Sex Discrimination Act in 1975, it was not until 1991 that men and women were allowed to vote for both men and women. Prior to that, the women had just been allowed to vote for the women and the men for the men.

Sir William Morris: Can I just ask, how many places are there?

Ms Earl: For each rank, we have five places in territorial policing, one position in specialist operations, and one position in the special crime directorate. The constitution is currently being amended, which will give us two more vacancies: one in the directorate under the Commissioner's office, and human resources – yes, that will be it.

Sir William Morris: Just to refresh my memory again, men and women are entitled to participate in the ballot for these reserve vacancies.

Ms Earl: Only women can stand, but men and women can vote for them.

Sir William Morris: The constituency is men and women, although only women can be candidates?

Ms Earl: Yes.

Sir William Morris: Yes, that is clear. Am I right in assuming that you only go up to inspector rank?

Ms Earl: Chief inspector, which is an inspector, yes.

Sir William Morris: Is there an equivalent committee for the ACPO ranks, the ranks covered by ACPO?

Ms Earl: I do not believe we have a separate women's committee on those, ACPO have reserved a position for ladies, but, as far as I am aware, sir, they do not have a special women's committee.

Sir William Morris: I see. Is there any linkage at all, informal or otherwise, between women police officers above the rank of chief inspectors and those in the ranks above; have you got any sort of support groups, any sort of relationship at all, formal or otherwise?

Ms Earl: The only one that there would be is if officers were members of the Association of Women Police, and then, under that title, we could all mix together then, all ranks, if you were a member.

Sir William Morris: You know the buzz word in the Met at the moment is the gender agenda; how does that sort of operate? Because we are making the assumption that the gender agenda encompasses all women within the MPS, so how does it work if you have got some sort of formal structure, and the ACPO rank – women in the ACPO rank have not; how does the gender agenda operate in the context of what should be the priority issues to be explored, and issues around work/life balance, and caring responsibilities? Help us here.

Ms Earl: The Commissioner operates a Commissioner's women's focus group, where officers of all ranks meet together with the Commissioner, so that is where all ranks would meet together, to discuss any issues that we had, and that was set up under the EnGender scheme, but as for anything other, then there is no formal process for meeting and mixing with all ranks.

Sir William Morris: You know, before you attend one of these Commissioner structured meetings, does your committee get together under the auspices of the Police Federation to determine the policy areas that you think should be taken forward for discussion under the aegis of the Commissioner?

Ms Earl: Our committee, in fact – there is not one member of our committee that sits on the Commissioner's women's focus group. They were chosen at random, and I think Denise Milani said the way they were chosen – those people who did not have any direct link, or any other way of the Commissioner hearing their voice, then they were the people that would sit on the committee, so our committee –

Sir William Morris: You are not represented?

Ms Drury: Not at all. There is no formal mechanism for us to actually be part of that committee, of the Commissioner's focus group, because we are not invited members.

Sir William Morris: I see. Is your committee represented on any of the internal MPS structures? Where are you represented in the Met?

Ms Earl: We are not invited to any of the committees.

Sir William Morris: None at all?

Ms Earl: No.

Sir William Morris: What about the advisory group?

Ms Earl: No, sir, none of them.

Ms Drury: I think it is fair to say that the women's committee forms part of the Police Federation generally, and the Police Federation does have a voice, and from the joint executive and the various branch boards, sergeants, inspectors and constables, at meetings we are given an opportunity to voice our concerns, which should be taken forward, but, in our own right, we have no direct representation.

Sir William Morris: So let me just understand this: the Federation is represented on the Commissioner's convened group, committee, whatever it is called; that is right, is it not?

Ms Drury: Not the women's focus group, but within the various policy areas, there is, generally speaking, some Federation input.

Sir William Morris: But who then represents the Federation in the women's focus group?

Ms Earl: Nobody.

Ms Drury: We are not invited to it.

Sir William Morris: But is the Federation represented on the women's focus group?

Ms Earl: Not specifically, no.

Sir William Morris: Just a last question that I want to put to you – because we have heard some evidence from witnesses who indicated to us, and I do not see it as a sort of defining statement, but nevertheless, it was said: following the Lawrence Inquiry, and other recent events, issues of race have assumed an importance to the MPS that has meant that other issues, such as gender, whilst not being completely swept away, have been perhaps put on the backburner a little. Is that a fair statement, do you think?

Ms Drury: Yes, I think that is a very fair statement. Quite rightly, there has been concentration in the service on race-related matters, and I have to say that it is our own personal experience that that has been to the detriment of the gender issues, it really has.

In fact, at the International Women's Day event recently, we posed exactly that question to DAC Carol Howlett, who admitted as such, that, to some extent, women's issues had been put on the backburner.

Sir William Morris: Okay. Well, thank you very much indeed, that has been extremely helpful in understanding how the structure and the system work. Miss Weekes has some questions for you, so at this point, I think I should just invite her to put those questions on our behalf.

Questions by Miss Weekes

Miss Weekes: Thank you. Could I follow through something I was not aware of, which is the fact that you do not regularly have access to what I call quite high level discussions with the Commissioner. Can I ask you a general question first, before I come to that? In your experience, all three of you, if you want urgent and immediate change in the Met, who do you go to, and how does it happen?

Ms Drury: If we are to progress it through the Police Federation, we are a sub-committee of the joint executive committee, and we would have to take it to them for them to agree to progress it.

Miss Weekes: Right, but they have to agree to progress it?

Ms Drury: That is right.

Miss Weekes: Outside of the Federation, if you want urgent, important change, who do you go to, and how does it happen?

Ms Drury: I do not think there is any one designated senior officer. I personally, where I have had specific problems, have approached Mr Blair directly, and Commander Steve James, head of diversity, directly, and I have simply e-mailed them, phoned them up, made an appointment and gone to speak to them about certain issues, but there is not any one senior officer point of contact that we could take any specific issues to.

Miss Weekes: Okay. Can I just ask, the nature of the forum groups and the Commissioner's talks, is that where change can often take place?

Ms Earl: I do not honestly know of any changes that have happened because of it. I think issues are raised there that may well change policies or practices, but not that we are personally aware of.

Miss Weekes: I think you probably see why I am asking you the questions. As an important group of police officers, not just because you are women, but as an important group of police officers that have something to say, if you wanted change, what is your preferred method of getting change?

Ms Drury: I think it would be beneficial for us, as a committee, to be able to take problems and concerns forward directly. Within the Federation constitution, which I have to admit to not fully understanding, I find it a very complicated document, there are certain protocols and avenues which we have to pursue to take issues forward.

We have found that frustrating at times, and we have had to try and explore various avenues to get issues to the table. Generally, we succeed in some shape or form, but it is not an easy process.

Miss Weekes: So what is the preferred option? There is obviously a difficulty with the constitution of the Federation, I can understand that. You have to work within it.

Ms Drury: That is right.

Miss Weekes: And unless you were going to persuade the statute makers of the Home Office that they should completely reform that, at the moment, you are stuck with it.

Ms Drury: That is right.

Miss Weekes: But in a better world – in the real world, what is your preferred route for dramatic, urgent change?

Ms Drury: For dramatic and urgent change, I think I speak for all of us, we would actually like to see the position of the women's Federation certainly raised. It is not just about being a Federation member, it is about being a woman in this job, and about having a voice and being able to go to places and speak up, and, at the moment, that is very difficult.

Ms Earl: I would like to see us have one senior officer where, if you had a problem, you could go directly to him, and he was senior enough to make the changes. Because I think that is a problem, I think we have practices and policies that are in place, and they are in place at Scotland Yard and people are aware of them there; when you come out to all the different boroughs in London, that policy changes somewhat, or it is forgotten about, so what is actually in place – what the Commissioner puts in place is not what we actually see at the police stations.

Miss Weekes: You will forgive me for labouring the point a little, I do want to understand the frustration that you have, of being given this reserved seat on the Federation, which we understand could be viewed as a very important, powerful organisation within the Met, but that you have frustrations about having your voice heard.

So I want to ask a little bit more about that, because we have already heard from the Federation, and we did not understand that to be the position – I am not blaming anyone, but we did not understand it, so now I have the opportunity, I would like to understand it.

What gives you the frustration of telling the Federation, for example, about some of the real difficulties that you have outlined in your paper to us?

Ms Earl: I personally think – we do tell them what the problems are, but I do not think some of the men understand the problems that we are talking about as we are as women, and I do not think they maybe see them as important as we do.

And they do go to a lot of meetings, and I realise that something like flexible working and problems we are having may not be high on their agenda at a management meeting they are having with the Commissioner.

I think it is a case of changing attitudes not just within the service but also in the Federation.

Miss Weekes: But they represent the rank and file.

Ms Earl: Yes, they represent all of us, and they do fight for all of us, but I do not honestly think that they see things as we, as women, see them, on some issues.

Miss Weekes: Do you think they understand your frustration? Do they know about it?

Ms Earl: Yes, they do know about it.

Ms Drury: I think they certainly know about it. But we are, of course, as we keep going back to, bound by the constitution and the protocols and procedures, and that is the only way forward for us.

Miss Weekes: To have that changed?

Ms Drury: In effect, that would be – I think that would be a good thing. Whether or not that is a view shared by all, I do not know.

Miss Weekes: Can I come to one or two of the problems you have outlined? We can conveniently bring up page 2 of your submission that you have given us, because it really goes to the root of the problem. It will come up on your screen in a moment; I know you have it, but it is quite easy to see it on the screen as well. (Pause).

This particular page outlines – I am sorry, it is not coming up today, but if we can go to pages 1 and 2 of your document, we may get it eventually. You have talked about flexible working, and can I say that the concerns you have outlined have been mirrored by some other evidence that we have heard from female witnesses who have come before us.

I want to just summarise the level of the difficulty. Flexible working time has been available in the Met for how long?

Ms Earl: In 1994 we had part-time working introduced, and then we have had different things come in since then.

Miss Weekes: So pretty much ten years you have lived with this – it is not new.

Ms Earl: No.

Miss Weekes: And it mirrors the rest of what society is dealing with, in terms of flexi-time.

Ms Earl: Indeed.

Miss Weekes: It also mirrors the European directive, that has talked about protection to be given for flexi-time and part-time workers. There are three areas of concern that you have very succinctly put; the first is that a woman may ask for flexible working time, or part-time work, but there is often a blank refusal, or the attempt to fit it into the rostering simply does not happen. She becomes frustrated, depressed, some may leave altogether, or they move out of the borough that they are in, in search of a more friendly borough that will give them that.

Ms Earl: Yes.

Miss Weekes: Have I summarised that?

Ms Earl: Perfectly.

Miss Weekes: So women actually move – they have to move, to try and find somebody who will give them the flexible working time.

Ms Earl: Yes.

Miss Weekes: Do managers understand that it is unlawful to bluntly refuse a woman's request for part-time or flexible working time?

Ms Earl: I honestly do not think it enters their heads. I think they just think, "It does not fit in with what we operate", and I do not think they understand that there is any discrimination not to even think about it, try to offer something else; I just do not think they think about it.

Miss Weekes: I am afraid we do go back to the Federation, and I want to just ask you this general question: if the Federation recognise an unlawful trend occurring within the Met, do they have a function to do anything about it?

Ms Earl: Yes, and indeed, the three of us that are here – that is mainly what we deal with, which is why we have asked Commander Allen if we can do some work around flexible working with him, because in the last 12 or 18 months, we have just been overrun with problems of officers wanting to do part-time work. That is nearly every phone call we get, or every other phone call is about part-time – not being able to address a roster, just no one being very helpful. Basically, it is just all too difficult.

Miss Weekes: Can we get an idea as to – I am not necessarily asking for figures, because I appreciate you may not have had a moment to monitor it, or give me statistics, but what is the level of this problem? We have a concept – we know how many people work for the Met, we know the boroughs, and how many people are aligned to boroughs. Give me an idea of the figures, the level of –

Ms Drury: I think that is actually going to be quite difficult to do. On the women's committee, as Andrea has said, it is fair to say that we receive a huge amount of enquiries, and, to varying degrees, from an outright refusal by people – and do not get us wrong, the policy is there, and the policy is quite clear, it is just that it does not seem to be implemented in the manner in which it was intended, through lack of knowledge – we are not sitting here saying all the middle managers are very bad people, but our phones are ringing constantly, from outright refusal to people who are finding it difficult to actually agree a roster.

In fact, I have sat at meetings personally where the inspector who was agreeing the roster with the constable was of the opinion, "How many nights can I make her work?", rather than, "How can we actually make this work for all of us?" I think it is a culture and an attitude thing, as well as training.

Miss Weekes: What would you like to be put in place? Because it is clear that you all understand the difficulty, and, thankfully, you all want to do something about it.

What would you like to see in place which will help you to deal with this rather urgent problem?

Ms Earl: I think it could be quite simple actually. We have an intranet. If I am full-time and I want to be part-time, currently, it could take me anything from half a day to a whole day to find out all the policies, practices, everything that is on our intranet sites, and it is difficult and time-consuming.

I personally would like to see an intranet site dedicated to just work/life balance, so that anyone, male or female, could go to that site, find out what they need to do if they want to be part-time, or whatever hours they want to work; even in question and answer form, "Can I do this? How can I do it?", so it would educate people, because some ladies do have – they just have ideas that cannot be accepted, so it is difficult trying to find that balance, something that works for the service but also works for the officer.

I think if there was one dedicated site that people could go to and it would say, "This is what the law says, this is what the service requires, how can we come together?", and if it was easy and everyone could access it, that would help tremendously.

Ms Drury: It would also take away a lot of the misinformation circulating. Middle managers, as I have said, do not seem to have the training on the policy, and they make decisions, they believe, in good faith, that are actually clearly against the policy.

Ms Kitchener: I was just about to say that training for middle managers would be so beneficial to themselves and us, and the people – because they are having to implement this. That would be a great help as well, if they just had some knowledge around it, which they do not appear to have at the moment.

Miss Weekes: And apart from the intranet, how, again, would you like to see support put in place to ensure that once people access the intranet, managers are actually following through?

There are various ways of monitoring. You could put in place sanctions; not everybody agrees with sanctions, when management get it wrong, inadvertently or deliberately, but you help me as to how you see this change going forward.

Ms Drury: I hear what you say about sanctions, and generally speaking, people do not go out of their way to be really nasty about this, but there are managers that we have come up against that are making the same mistakes time and time again.

Now if that is happening, and there is a training need identified, and they are retrained, or given some help, or whatever, and they still continue to make those decisions, then what other option is there? There does not seem to be any monitoring. If there were, on each OCU, a named officer that was the contact point, even if there was just one that people could go to who has been properly trained, who has the knowledge of the policies, the procedures, the law, and can do the negotiating, then that would probably solve most of the problem.

Miss Weekes: So you envisage the possibility of a woman who has had an outright refusal being able to go to that specialist officer to say, "Look, this is what I offered, I think it is reasonable, he said no outright", and then that officer could, as it were, mediate.

Ms Drury: I think that would be a really good answer. It then makes the training achievable, because they are looking at only having to train a certain number, so at least there is a wide spread between each of the OCUs, rather than trying to train every middle manager, because clearly that would be a huge undertaking. It is right that they should have some knowledge about it, but one named person that people can go to I think would be an excellent idea.

Miss Weekes: I take on board what you say – I offered the sanctions evenly, because it is not for us to say what your conclusions would be, but you envisage that there should be some sanctions in place when there has been persistent, consistent failure to adhere to an important policy?

Ms Drury: I cannot think of any other way of dealing with it. If it is consistent or persistent, I really cannot think of any other way of dealing with it.

Miss Weekes: Do you have any idea what the sanctions should be, or is it just a principle that you are putting forward?

Ms Drury: I think that would have to be looked at very carefully, and I think just the principle should stand.

Miss Weekes: I understand. Who would take forward this package, which to my mind, sounds an excellent way forward, to deal with what is clearly an immediate urgent problem. You have mentioned the intranet, the possible person on site to deal with issues.

Ms Drury: I think it needs the – I think the gender agenda could take part in it, I think the diversity directorate and Commander Steve James could – sorry, Steve Allen, could take ownership of it. And I would like to actually see something a little bit more high-profile for women within the diversity directorate, you know, a team for women.

We have concentrated, and rightly so, on the race matters, and I think it is time now to bring back something – to bring forward the concerns of women.

Miss Weekes: I think I just want to touch on one other aspect of the details that you have given us. I want to ask this about the rotas; has there been an attempt made to present examples of rotas to management? Because it is quite clear from your submission that they have a real difficulty understanding how you can actually fix a rota to include two or three part-timers, and it will not interrupt with urgent operational duties.

Ms Drury: I think the difficulty about examples there is, some years ago, in the Metropolitan Police force, we all worked a four-week shift system, on fixed days, on/off, and no matter where you worked, you could always tell what other people were doing.

We now have all the different OCUs working different shift patterns, compressed hours, so it would be difficult to find specific rotas to fit all those different requirements. I do not think we would be able to do sample rotas that would fit all the different methods of shift system that are now available in the Met.

Miss Weekes: But certainly, if a woman comes forward with a request, and she did have independent representation, in that particular instance you could draft what it is she wants to fit in with the rota, if the manager refused to do that.

Ms Earl: We usually get called when there is a problem, and we always go out and sit with officers and try to address a roster, and go and speak to management, taking the roster and negotiating things.

But it is about changing managers' attitudes: instead of saying, "You are a uniformed officer, you do earlies, lates and nights", you need to think outside a little bit, "How can we use these people?", but not just put them in an office to count paperclips, motivate them, give them a proper job, because sometimes, that is what happens.

If they are not working with a team, they are on their own when they come in for part of the day, and they get forgotten about. They get depressed and fed up, and they just feel, "I am coming to work, but why? Nobody is interested, nobody knows I am here", and that should never happen, because a part-time officer gives a year's roster; that should always be included on the computer system. They must know when she is there, but people forget about them.

Miss Weekes: One of the important things that you have mentioned is that women are reluctant to raise concerns, full stop. Some are brave enough, when it gets really bad. We have not heard from very many women on this Inquiry; does that surprise you?

Ms Drury: Not at all.

Miss Weekes: Why does it not surprise you?

Ms Drury: I think sometimes, as women, we can be our own worst enemies, and we put glass ceilings on ourselves. Things do have to become really bad for women to actually come and speak to us. They have actually had to be virtually backed into a corner.

I do not know, I think it is a culture thing. It is still very much a male-dominated service, and we accept that, we knew that when we joined. But I do think some of the problems are about them putting barriers in themselves, about not wanting to come forward, because they are frightened to put their head above the parapet, and the reaction they are going to get.

Miss Weekes: Is that fear because they – I do not know, this is a guess, so if I am wrong, please correct me: is that because they fear there would be no one there to protect them, once they have said, "This manager has discriminated against me, will not give me reasonable part-time work off"; is there a fear they will not be protected?

Ms Earl: I think that comes into it. I think people will just brand them as troublemakers, and then it will be more difficult for them to try and get on. I think you need some confidence to be able to go forward and say, "I think you are wrong", and then be supported afterwards, and I think a few women who have got concerns are afraid they are just going to be left on their own, you know, "I have made this complaint and now I am going to have no one to help me".

Miss Weekes: How can we improve on that? Because you will not get women to come forward if there are not enough people around to support them, to protect them, and watch them through the fight.

Ms Earl: I think senior management in the service needs to say, "If you have a problem, come to us, and we will address it". I do not think if a lady takes a concern, it will be disregarded, but I think they need to know they will be fully supported; you know, "We will help you address these issues and go through", and I do not think we sell that enough. I do not think we sell, "If you have a problem, come and speak to us and we will sort it out".

Ms Kitchener: There is still a stigma attached to taking these things forward when there is something that comes to a head, and normally, that is when we get involved, but there is a terrible stigma attached to taking these things forward, and putting – as Andrea said, putting your head above the parapet. You know, you are sort of branded almost a trouble maker, which seems to follow you everywhere.

Miss Weekes: Is there a centralised way of all senior management knowing what is often very embarrassing, depressing detail of how women are treated, so that the Met sit up, perhaps, and do something about it?

Ms Drury: I do not think there is anything centralised at the moment, certainly nothing I am aware of. As I said earlier, we always approach whatever relevant senior officer, depending on the problem, in an effort to resolve it, and I know Mr Blair is very supportive of women generally, has been very good to many of the women I have dealt with.

Perhaps it is time that there was exactly that sort of forum, where everybody can be made aware of it, and you are right, a lot of the problems that women come forward with have the potential to be embarrassing for them, and not something they want to discuss with all and sundry. And if there were good policies in place in the first place, they would not be put in that embarrassing position.

Miss Weekes: I say that because to an extent, a degree of that happened on the race agenda. It was really publicised, brought to the centre, and talked about frankly for some time, and you have, I think, very fairly said you understand why that happened, but it is now time for gender.

Ms Drury: It is true that I can remember, ten years ago, we actually did have relevant training on sex discrimination, and, since then, we have been concentrating on race – but since then, we have had all these policies about part-time and all the rest of it come in, and they just do not have the same place of importance on the service agenda. That is what we think about it.

Miss Weekes: What would you say to us, for our consideration, about how we can help you to get this to the centre, to get the debate at a high level, similar to the way that the Met debated the issue of race?

Ms Earl: I think we need a senior officer that we can go to, expressing our concerns about whatever issues; if we had one named officer we could go to, who was actually going to do something, and not just listen and drip feed information down the service, but someone that would actually stand up and address these issues, that would be wonderful.

Miss Weekes: Thank you.

Sir William Morris: Thank you very much indeed. I will move straight on and ask Sir Anthony to lead some questions on our behalf.

Questions by Sir Anthony Burden

Sir Anthony Burden: Can you just help me get a feel for just how basic the problems are? I will just ask you a few questions around the operational policing arena, please. Female firearms officers have got all the proper equipment which is gender related; they are issued with two part overalls, hand guns are purchased properly, and formed body armour is purchased for female staff.

Ms Earl: As far as I am aware, we do not have – because I know some forces have smaller hand guns. We do not have any, but I do not honestly know of any females that have asked to have a smaller hand gun.

Sir Anthony Burden: But to be selected therefore, you have got to go through the gate of you are either big enough and strong enough to use a man's gun, I will use that term, otherwise, you are not big enough to be on the unit, yes?

Ms Earl: Indeed, I would suggest that – probably, yes.

Ms Drury: I think it is right that – you have used firearms officers there as an example. Now, I am a traffic officer.

Sir Anthony Burden: I was going to ask about motorbikes as well.

Ms Drury: For years, there has been criticism about the size of the motorcycles that are used, that make it difficult – not just for women, but for smaller male officers as well.

Sir Anthony Burden: Absolutely.

Ms Drury: Up until this recent round of tendering, female officers in traffic division were kitted out with male clothing, and, for this year, because I happened to be on the traffic committee, I have pushed and pushed, and for the first time in the Metropolitan Police history, we are actually going to have women's clothing for women in traffic division. Now I find that sort of attitude absolutely amazing.

Sir Anthony Burden: Can I just ask then, in terms of procurement of equipment generally, do women have a voice on those sort of procurement committees?

Ms Drury: Yes, there are general clothing boards, and, in actual fact, Lindsey sits on one of the main clothing boards. I managed to get a place on the traffic clothing board, and it is fair to say that there are very few women in traffic, and I appreciate when they go out for tender, they are looking predominantly for male garments, but to completely – we are just completely different fits. It is not scary, and we are a few, and they can write it into the tender. Those sort of things that are happening today, through procurement, I just find amazing.

Sir Anthony Burden: So do I. Can I ask you, if I can look at selection for promotion, selection for specialist appointments, I think – I hope you agree anyway, that, looking at the recruitment figures, they do reflect a big boost in the number of female officers coming into the Metropolitan Police.

Ms Drury: We have had probably the largest increase in women in the service than we have had in my 24 years' service.

Sir Anthony Burden: In terms of promotion and selection for specialist appointments, if female members of staff are to appear on board for either of the functions, would it be normal for a trained female selector to be on the board?

Ms Drury: No.

Sir Anthony Burden: Has it ever been thought about?

Ms Drury: Not that I know of. Again, within traffic, I managed to get myself on some of the selection boards, and I just think, depending on – obviously, if you have no women candidates coming forward for a particular post, then there would not be a place for it, but I do think – it is not just about women, it is about the ethnic minority side of it as well.

If you have got these candidates coming forward, why should we not have people on the panel doing the selection from the same minorities?

Sir Anthony Burden: That is the point. Can I just ask you then, having sat on these boards, what your experiences have been?

Ms Drury: I can give you one very clear recollection, we were trying to increase the number of women in traffic, it is still very much a male-dominated place, and a lady who had applied in the previous two years and had not been selected, to my surprise, had not applied that time, and I contacted her and said, "Why are you not putting your hat in the ring this time?", and she said, "I am pregnant", and I said to her, "It is only going to be for nine months, it is not for life", and she said, "Well, they will not want me". I said, "Well, if you want to come, you must put your application in", and she did, she came forward, she sat the interview, and she was selected.

Since then, having had the baby and the like, she has experienced all sorts of problems around flexible working, childcare, and those issues.

Again, as I said earlier, sometimes women put their own barriers there. They automatically assume, because they are pregnant, or just recently returning to work, that the selection board will not be interested in them.

Sir Anthony Burden: Does the general culture within the MPS, do you think, encourage women to come forward for specialist appointment selection?

Ms Drury: I think it is getting better. I think that certainly, at the beginning of my service, it was virtually unheard of, and we now are quite well represented in some specialisms; in fact, I think in child protection, we are overrepresented, are we not?

Sir Anthony Burden: So what are the good specialist departments doing right?

Ms Earl: They have open days, which are advertised, encouraging women to go along and talk to members in that group, tell them about vacancies that are coming up, and just encourage them to join.

Sir Anthony Burden: So you have got some senior role models now, have you not, in senior positions, operational positions, in specialist crime, for example?

Ms Earl: Yes, we have. They did an open day for firearms last year within SO19, and that was attended by Miss Wilding; she came along – and I think that encourages people. If they see a senior officer up there saying, "You can do this, have a go", it does encourage ladies to think, "Well, yes, maybe I will give it a try."

Sir Anthony Burden: For many of us, the progress seems painfully slow. Even the most optimistic would say, well, if this pace continues, then it is going to be a long time before you get a balanced workforce.

One thing possibly on the national agenda at the moment is looking at multi-point entry; that is, not everybody coming in at constable level, being able to come in at various points and various ages into the organisation, not necessarily an officer class, I would not call it that, but really saying, "Look, if you want to get a workforce that reflects society today, you have got to have this opportunity to actually have different options available to you".

Would that be something that you think would work in relation to increasing the number of female officers and police staff in senior positions?

Ms Drury: At the moment, the Metropolitan Police culture, as it were, is all about joining at the bottom and working your way up through the ranks, and gaining your credibility. For women, that is even more important. To show yourself quite often – and a lot of women in the service will echo this view: you have to show yourself to be better to be equal.

I do not know, I think I would have mixed views about a woman coming in at a higher rank, because I think that may well cause even more problems, because of the culture about, actually, you know, having done the ground floor, and knowing what it is about and having worked through it.

Sir Anthony Burden: Are there any other alternatives, if you are going to move things forward with some sort of pace?

Ms Drury: Yes, there are. They can make women feel far more valued in the service, they can make women feel that their voices will be heard, their concerns will be addressed, they can be far more proactive on the whole flexible working, pregnancy; there are good policies, but they need – they can make them even better.

I think I said in the written submission that, at the moment, part-time working is a concession, not a right. Well, why is it not a right? Why can it not be a right?

Sir Anthony Burden: I think my colleague explained that within the law it is a right.

Ms Drury: Well, that is right, but it is all about making women feel very valued members of the service with a clear understanding that their concerns will be heard, and I do not think that exists right now.

Sir Anthony Burden: Okay, can I just take that forward? At the risk of being beaten up badly here, you exist in a male-dominated organisation at the moment, and the police service generally is still male dominated. Therefore, you depend not only upon female champions, but also male champions, at the present time.

Ms Drury: That is right.

Sir Anthony Burden: Can I ask: is there anything happening which is trying to bring those male champions on board, to make them aware of the issues at senior level, to actually seek their assistance and support, so that gender issues can be taken forward with a lot of clout – you mentioned Mr Blair, I am pleased to hear that, and other senior male officers have been referred to here over the last few months, you know, that have been very supportive, particularly at borough level.

But we have heard some disastrous stories about boroughs that have not had a female officer promoted for three years.

Now it seems to me that, okay, you can either stay in the background, and just complain about it, or you can actually start to do something very positive and have a very definite message that you want to, and you attempt to, deliver to senior male managers.

Now is there any sort of strategy to try and do that?

Ms Drury: We have actually – just this year, we have decided to be more proactive. We have been in touch with Commander Steve Allen, and made some inroads there. Mr Blair has helped us on a couple of very sensitive issues, and has been very good.

We do try in individual cases; we are bound by the Federation constitution, and I think – I will be quite frank, I think we are looking to this Inquiry to make our lives better. I think our wish would be that there would be a specific senior officer, command team, on women's issues, with clear policies, clear reference points, that we can negotiate with freely, and I just think that would make a massive difference to women in the service.

Sir Anthony Burden: I think we heard from DAC Howlett that the Deputy Commissioner has actually asked her to try and regenerate the gender agenda, but we certainly hear what you say.

You say you are bound by the Federation constitution, but can I just ask you: if there are issues that are quite plainly relevant to female members of staff on an agenda, in one of these policy meetings, would one of you be asked to go?

Ms Earl: So far, we have not been.

Ms Drury: No, not always. Within our committee – we are not particularly rank oriented within the women's committee, we just tend to all share experiences and try to do the best we can. Each of the Federation branch boards has representatives on various committees and policies. I know Andrea sits on a couple, and I am a member of a branch board, where I can have my say, but I think there are four women on a committee of 63.

Sir Anthony Burden: For example, we heard from Mr Hogan-Howe, HR, many of the issues you referred to with Miss Weekes are HR issues; he told us that he has very regular meetings with staff associations.

Ms Drury: Yes, he would. He would have members of the Police Federation there, but it would not be us.

Sir Anthony Burden: So being HR, being the fact that, on that agenda, there might be 60 per cent family-friendly policies, it would not be likely that one of the female Federation committee would be asked to go and represent the Federation on that meeting?

Ms Drury: It is a matter for the Federation, for the joint executive or the branch boards, to decide and elect who goes to which committees, and at the moment, it is not us.

Sir Anthony Burden: It is not you, all right, thank you for that. Can I ask you, please, about the culture for women at Hendon? We have had evidence from various sources, and conflicting evidence, in fairness, on the transcripts, but we have heard concerns about the culture at Hendon in relation to minority groups represented in either student numbers or staff.

Have those concerns come to your attention at all?

Ms Drury: Not mine personally, but I believe Andrea has had some dealings with staff there.

Ms Earl: In the last year, I have had just a couple with staff having issues, and it was about part-time working, it was nothing about problems in the training itself. And as you know, we do have a constables' representative up at Hendon.

Sir Anthony Burden: Yes.

Ms Earl: Normally, if he had a woman up there that was having a particularly difficult time, I know he would ring me and let me know, and I have not had anything from Hendon to deal with.

Sir Anthony Burden: I think you referred to that last time we saw you. There is some move, is there not, to build in at Hendon a stronger sort of welfare support group that will be there to help opportunities through – you may not be aware of this.

Ms Drury: It is not something we are personally aware of, no.

Sir Anthony Burden: It is something we are very, very keen on. But, from what you are saying, you are not getting, from female recruits who come through, then, into the service, any suggestion that they are being treated in a sexist or a bullying way?

Ms Kitchener: I have just taken on a lady from Hendon who has been treated unfairly, but I obviously cannot discuss that quite openly here, because I am still dealing with her at the moment.

Ms Drury: There certainly does not seem – I certainly have not had anything in respect of Hendon, I know Andrea has had things from the staff there. If it is going on, it is obviously being dealt with by the representatives at the training school.

The first time really we get them is when they come out on to their OCUs, and at that point, either the local representative will deal with them – but nine times out of ten, if it is a lady with a ladies' issue, then they will pass it to us.

Sir Anthony Burden: Can I ask you, are there any formal or informal support networks in the Metropolitan Police for female staff?

Ms Earl: There are on some boroughs. Some boroughs run women's focus groups. I know the borough nearest to me runs one. But I do not know that every borough would run them. There are a few schemes, but I do not know how well taken up they are throughout the Metropolitan Police.

Sir Anthony Burden: There is nothing that is publicised – if you are having real problems, no phone numbers you can ring, nobody you could sort of relate to? It would not be common, for example, on most boroughs for a young female recruit, in the first few days, to get a phone call or a personal visit from somebody to say, "Look, I am just here if you need me, we have got this network"; that is not something that is in existence?

Ms Drury: Not specifically for women, but for ethnic minorities, there is the mentoring programme they are offered at Hendon and that, of course, is voluntary, should they wish to take that up, and I actually do the mentoring for those, but there is nothing for women.

Ms Kitchener: Myself and another male Federation rep on our borough do try to – when they have the recruits come out, within their first ten weeks of their initial training, we will try and go and introduce ourselves and say, "Look, I am one of the lady reps, if you have got any problems, this is me, this is where you can get hold of me", and just try and get our faces seen, so if they are having any problems, they know who we are.

Ms Drury: I think the whole system is just haphazard and sporadic, and it just happens – wherever you work is whether you are lucky or not. There is certainly nothing centrally.

Sir Anthony Burden: Would you see the women's committee as being central, if you were provided with the facilities, in perhaps providing that type of network within the Federation structure?

Ms Drury: I think that is something we would want to get involved with. It is definitely a thing where we feel we have a part to play, because, at the moment, we get things by other reps passing it because they do not want to deal with it, or other girls have said, "Oh, you need to phone so and so", and it is sort of a personal recommendation type thing, and, to be honest, there is still probably a lot of people out there who do not even know the women's committee exists.

Sir Anthony Burden: Because the real danger is, of course, if it is not done within the Federation structure, it will be done outside of the Federation structure. Somebody will have the idea, and that will dilute and confuse, I would suggest.

Ms Drury: To be honest, I think the best thing would be for the service and the Federation – whether it is the women's committee or the Federation generally – to get together and to actually start getting, you know, this senior officer, this one point of contact and everything, and let us see them get on with it, grasp hold of it, and do it.

Sir Anthony Burden: I mean, there is a real agenda to be written, is there not, for women within the Metropolitan Police Service –

Ms Drury: Yes, there is.

Sir Anthony Burden: – starting, I would suggest, from what you have told us this afternoon, at some very basic issues that would say to female officers, "Look, you really are valued, because we take the time and trouble to select the right kit for you", even as basic as that. I mean, it does sound very silly and very basic, but a female motorcyclist to be expected to don a male set of motorcycle kit, it is not acceptable.

Ms Drury: Do not get me wrong, things, since all of us have joined, have moved forward. I mean, God forbid we should still be practising some of the things that went on 24 years ago. There is a move forward, I think the move is too slow, and I would like to see the service get hold of this and move it on.

Sir Anthony Burden: You need a voice.

Ms Drury: We do.

Sir Anthony Burden: And you need an opportunity to actually put your agenda on the table.

Ms Drury: And we do, where we can, through the Federation, we will raise issues – usually, however, they are individual issues, because we are all dealing with matters individually. There are clearly whole areas that need addressing, and the right format for that would be an absolute godsend.

Sir Anthony Burden: And I correct what I say; you do not need a voice, because it might be a voice at the wrong level; you need voices at various levels, that are able to represent –

Ms Drury: At various levels, and it needs the right people in charge, with a willingness to get hold of it and do something with it. We have met many senior officers in our time that will pay great attention to what you have to say, promise you the world, but it is not delivered. So it needs to be somebody who is really going to get on with the job.

Sir Anthony Burden: Thank you very much.

Ms Kitchener: But I think we would like our own voice heard to do it ourselves, rather than have to go through somebody else to get our point across, we would like to do it ourselves.

Sir Anthony Burden: I accept all you say, I just think the point I made about female and male champions is, if you are going to take this forward, it is no good taking it forward in isolation. In my personal view, I just think you have got to put your reasons on the table, and they have to be accepted by the whole of the Metropolitan Police Service as being valid, and then the movement will be one which is justified and well understood.

Thank you, chairman.

Sir William Morris: Thank you, Sir Anthony. Well, could I just, in trying to pull the ends together here, say that Sir Anthony's questions have completed the questions that we intended to ask of you? But I did say in my opening comments earlier that, before we conclude this session of the hearing, we would provide you with the opportunity to make a closing statement, if you wish, and it is open to all three of you, if you want to say a final word, to impart any information, or whatever it is that you want to say; if you do want to take advantage of that opportunity, then the time is now.

Ms Drury: Just really to say thank you very much for inviting us along and listening to us, and I know that there have been other women that have come here to give evidence to the Morris Inquiry, and they have found that probably a far more useful exercise than they ever did going through the policies we have in the workplace.

They actually found – coming here, they actually did feel that there was an opportunity for them to truly be listened to, and for things to change. We would like to thank you very much for the opportunity.

Ms Earl: Thank you.

Ms Kitchener: Thank you.

Sir William Morris: Anybody else?

Ms Earl: I think I would just like to say that we have got 5,000 women in the Metropolitan Police now, and if we do not start now to get these issues addressed, we will never do it. I think now is the time that we have got to do something.

Ms Kitchener: Just to agree with Sarah and Andrea, thank you very much for inviting us.

Sir William Morris: Before you leave, I need to have some closing words, just for the record. My words are these: as with all our witnesses, it may be that, once we have heard from other witnesses, we may well want to ask you some more questions. Those questions might be in writing, or we might ask you to come back for another oral session of hearings.

If we do decide to ask you any further questions, then we will try and do so in a way that causes the least possible inconvenience to your good selves, or indeed to your organisation.

What I now need to do is just to place on record the collective thanks of the panel for your written submission that you have sent to us, your attendance this afternoon and your responses to the questions that we have put to you, we are very grateful for that, and to thank you for your overall contribution to our work and the work of the Inquiry. So thank you all very much indeed.

We stand adjourned until 26th May.

3.10 pm
(Hearing adjourned until 10.30 am on Wednesday, 26th May 2004)

On this website:

• Evidence: Metropolitan Police Federation Women’s Committee
  Evidence provided by and documents referred to by the Metropolitan Police Federation Women’s Committee in its appearance at the Inquiry.